Enlightened Anatomy with Matthew Huy

7: Libby Hinsley on why you gotta know anatomy & physiology

• Matthew Huy • Episode 7

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Host Matt Huy interviews Dr. Libby Hinsley, an experienced physical therapist, yoga teacher, and hypermobility specialist. They discuss Libby’s background, her work with hypermobility syndromes, and her approach to teaching anatomy to yoga teachers. Key topics include the importance of understanding anatomy for yoga practitioners and teachers, common misconceptions about body mechanics, the role of pain in yoga practice, and the benefits and considerations of yin yoga for hypermobile individuals. Libby provides insights on how yoga teachers can empower their students through informed anatomical knowledge and reflective practice.

Resources mentioned:


00:00 Introduction to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast

00:26 Meet Dr. Libby Hinsley: Yoga Teacher and Physical Therapist

01:30 Libby's Journey: From Yoga Teacher to Physical Therapist

03:57 The Importance of Anatomy Knowledge for Yoga Teachers

12:03 Understanding Pain and Its Implications in Yoga

18:17 Hypermobility and Yoga: A Nuanced Discussion

18:44 The Role of Yin Yoga for Hypermobile Individuals

26:48 Debunking Myths: What Yoga Teachers Should Stop Saying

31:58 Debunking Myths About Back Pain and Yoga

32:54 The Fear of Spinal Flexion in Yoga

36:12 Understanding Anatomy for Better Yoga Practice

37:52 Decoding Common Yoga Cues

43:39 The Importance of Individual Anatomy in Yoga

48:38 Empowering Yoga Students Through Self-Discovery

55:11 The Role of Anatomy in Yoga Teaching

58:16 Conclusion and Final Thoughts



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Saz:

Welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, where we take a deep dive into the worlds of anatomy, physiology, and science to help you deepen your yoga practice. Now, here's your host, Matthew Huy.

Matthew Huy:

Hello and welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy podcast. My guest today is Dr. Libby Hinsley, who is a doctor of physical therapy. She's also a yoga teacher. She is the author of Yoga for Bendy People, which you can guess is all about hypermobility. In fact, she's a hypermobility specialist, which I'm sure we'll touch on today. And she is finally a yoga educator. She helps educate yoga teachers, as well as yoga practitioners, all on the topic of anatomy and other things. So, welcome, Dr. Hinsley,

Libby Hinsley:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here with you today and have this conversation.

Matthew Huy:

I'll just call you Libby if that's all right.

Libby Hinsley:

Sounds good.

Matthew Huy:

Y'all have a southern drawl, I can hear.

Libby Hinsley:

I am Southern. I'm from East Tennessee originally, and I currently live in Asheville, North Carolina.

Matthew Huy:

Brilliant., The way I first heard about you was through Mado Hesselink, whose podcast is brilliant, I highly recommend it, called Yoga Teacher Resource Podcast. And she's a great yoga educator on the topic of anatomy but particularly business for yoga teachers. So could you just give us a brief background on, your physical therapy, hypermobility, etc?

Libby Hinsley:

Sure. So I've been teaching yoga since about 2005 when Mado and I finished our teacher training program And I really

Matthew Huy:

2005. Exactly. Nice.

Libby Hinsley:

Awesome awesome. So coming up on 20 years, which sounds insane But before that, I did, you know, other things and worked in the environmental field. But yoga, starting to teach yoga for those early years really got me interested in people's bodies and really wanting to understand more about that. Because of course, at the end of every yoga class, all my students wanted to ask me questions about why this or that hurts in such and such posture. And I had no idea, like most people coming out of a 200 hour teacher training, I really knew almost zero about anatomy. and how the body works, you know, because that's just not, there's not time for much of that. So I got curious about that and that ultimately led me to go into study physical therapy. I went back to school for PT and I've been practicing as a PT now for about 12 or 13 years. And I really love that. I worked in an outpatient orthopedic clinic for about six years full time, which led to a great deal of burnout and health issues for myself. And at this point, I just, I work part time in a self, you know, private practice where I mostly treat people with hypermobility syndromes like Ehlers Danlos syndrome, hypermobility spectrum disorder, and also a lot of yoga practitioners who are struggling with Yoga related aches and pains and injuries and things like that. So that's a trajectory, I think, being a PT and a yoga educator, you know, since becoming a PT, I got really excited about teaching anatomy to yoga teachers. And so that's become one of my little areas of focus.

Matthew Huy:

Great And for my friends in the UK, which is where I live, when Libby says PT, she's not referring to personal training, which is the common thing here that it refers to, but rather physical therapy.

Libby Hinsley:

I'm a physiotherapist,

Matthew Huy:

Yeah. Or physio. Yeah.

Libby Hinsley:

Yes, and I'm also a personal trainer, too.

Matthew Huy:

Oh, you are also a PT.

Libby Hinsley:

That's more, that's more recent. I've been really, over the last few years, getting much more into strength training for myself. And that led me to actually just add on a little education and certification in personal training. So now I do that as well, and I really love it.

Matthew Huy:

Oh, great. And you made a comment about how people were asking you questions after class. You know, why, why does my knee hurt Why does my back hurt? Et cetera. Um, and I think yoga teachers are very often expected to know suddenly everything there is to know about the body. One classic story of that is, when I was teaching anatomy on a teacher training program So someone within that program, told some people at a dinner party that they were doing yoga teacher training, and someone said, Oh, great. Well, then you'll be able to explain why I have knee pain.

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly. Yeah. This

Matthew Huy:

person hadn't even completed their yoga teacher training. Some people expect them to know everything there is to know about the body. So,

Libby Hinsley:

true.

Matthew Huy:

so obviously yoga teachers can't know everything, and definitely we're not, you know, medics. You are, but most of us aren't. so what do you think it is that yoga teachers do need to know? What could they feel comfortable sharing, what kind of information with people?

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah. So I think this is a really, a tricky topic. I think it's a really important topic, obviously. there's a problem with yoga consumerism, right? And this expectation that is completely unrealistic and not based on reality at all. And a lot of those yoga teachers are feeling the stress and anxiety of their students thinking they know more than they do about a lot of things, anatomy being just one of them, but like nutrition and. Ayurveda, I mean, all different things, right? The yoga student, and I was like this too, way back when I was, you know, an early yoga student. I thought my yoga teacher knew everything about everything. So that's a problem and it causes a lot of stress and anxiety. So I think step one is for yoga teachers to understand that they aren't expected to know. everything about the body at all. And it's a really wonderful answer to say, I don't know. That's interesting to me, but I really don't know that much about the knee or low back pain could have a zillion different contributing factors. It's impossible for me to make a guess right now, you know, and even if we were to spend a lot of time together, I don't actually have the skills to evaluate and diagnose. what's going on musculoskeletally, not to mention all the other, you know, biopsychosocial factors that almost always feed into someone's pain experience. So pain is really complicated. Even if we just reduce it to mechanical stuff, it's complicated and we don't have the skills as yoga teachers to evaluate it. So I think that's a really important to be able to say. And oftentimes when I'm working with a group of yoga teachers or teachers in training, I will just have them. Say out loud a bunch of times. I don't know. And I'll just have them repeat that over and over. So they just get comfortable being able to say that. Cause that's the most ethical answer.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, yeah, I can certainly see sometimes, Yoga teachers not staying in their lanes, if you will. And, you know, as you said, talking about nutrition or fasting and, and, though it's important to keep ourselves updated about it, we can't necessarily give advice. on every single topic, yeah. and this is something I say in a teacher training, what does this yoga teacher training qualify you to do? And it's such an obvious question, but it's really to teach yoga. And, and then also let that be liberating in that you don't have to be expected to know anything else, okay? So, having said that, what we don't need to know, what do you think is essential for people to know, for yoga teachers to know. And then also, there might be yoga practitioners, non teachers here. I personally think, and I'm sure you'll probably agree, some basic knowledge of the body is, is helpful, but what do you think is necessary for a yoga teacher and also just a yoga practitioner?

Libby Hinsley:

So this is why I think it is important for yoga teachers to study anatomy because their students are learning about their bodies in their class and they haven't learned about their bodies anywhere else. We have such poor body literacy, just culturally. We don't learn about our bodies. So when someone's in your yoga class and you are speaking about the body, this is a big educational moment for the students. So I think yoga teachers learning some really basic foundational anatomy terminology and understanding about how the body works mechanically will lead to more accuracy in what they are saying about the body and what is happening in a given posture, like which muscles are producing the force for this movement, for example. That's nice to know that basic muscular anatomy so that when you're in, say, downward dog, you know what muscles are holding you up in a way so that you can direct your students' awareness to those areas and they can feel some sensation in their, in their body or what muscles are stretching, what's on tension in a certain position. Um, what happens when we change orientation to gravity? lying down on my belly, lifting up causes some work to happen in a certain area of muscles. If I lay on my back and lift up against gravity, that's totally different, right? Uh, all those things. Gravity is one of the missing elements I find in a lot of yoga teachers understanding about mechanics, is what happens when gravity's orientation changes. It's huge. So these are some examples. So I like to start in a layered approach. I like people to know skeletal anatomy, what are the bones called, and what are the special spots on bones that serve as muscular attachment sites. how do joints move? All the major joints in the body, how much should we expect them to move? So I think having a grip on normal ranges of motion is critical, and it's another big missing piece, so that when you're looking out at your class, and they're in a position, you're teaching them a posture, you know if what you're seeing is reasonable, and you know if what you're asking for is actually reasonable to expect. Very often, it isn't, but we don't know that. Let's say I cue a pigeon pose and I ask my class to put their front shin parallel to the front of their mat. And I expect their hips to be, you know, pelvis to be on the floor, shin parallel. That's asking for 90 degrees of hip external rotation. That's unreasonable. That's not normal. We should not expect that out of our students. But if I haven't learned that normal hip external rotation range of motion is actually 45 to 60 degrees, then I don't know that it's not reasonable to expect. So things like that, and that basic foundational stuff, bones, joints, muscles, what do these major muscles do? What movement do they create? those are the keys, because that helps us describe movement more accurately, more clearly. It also helps us, and this is a whole other Layer of this that I think is super critical, it helps us know not to be so afraid of the body. So much of the language of yoga teaching tends to be nocebic, tends to be fear based, and it comes out of a really, well intentioned desire not to hurt people, comes out of a nice place, but it leads to more harm than good. And it's just people kind of default to safety types of language because they don't know for sure if this is safe or not. but when they get more comfortable with an understanding of how the body works and what is reasonable to expect out of it, they actually become less afraid of the body. And that's very liberating.

Matthew Huy:

Totally. That's my experience in a nutshell. As a young teacher, yeah, I was nervous about injuring people.

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, me too. I said all the things those early years, you know, probably for five, six years, I said all the things that would make me cringe now to hear a yoga teacher say about protecting your knee and protecting your low back and all the things, that now I understand, I don't need to say.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah. Same boat. Like I said, I was worried about injuring people and worried about saying the wrong thing. And through science, through learning about anatomy and physiology, it has made me a totally more confident teacher. And through studying pain science also, even knowing that this is a huge revelation, if someone is in pain during a pose, during an exercise, that does not necessarily mean that they're doing more damage. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. Pain is basically a perception. And people's perceptions can change drastically. And I know this, for some people listening to this, this can be kind of mind blowing. Like, wait, what? I can allow pain? And, this needs to be a very nuanced discussion. It has to be very person focused. But, even just knowing that, that it's a That it's okay if someone has some uncomfortable sensations in a pose. Yeah, I've definitely had the same experience, that it's been hugely reassuring.

Libby Hinsley:

Yes, absolutely. And yeah, you're right. Studying pain science, I've got really into that as a PT, studying the neuroscience of pain because as a new PT, I, as a new physio, I discovered that what I was mostly treating was chronic pain. occasionally I'd have a post op patient or something, but most people had chronic low back pain, chronic knee pain, whatever. And it was not as much related to a mechanism of injury. So, I got really into that. It's really changed everything about how I view the body and understand pain. And you're right that pain is a perception. It's just simply 100 percent of the time your brain's assessment of your safety. You know, and sometimes that's an accurate assessment and sometimes it's not. Yeah, but we don't need to always tie together an experience of discomfort with injury or tissue damage. Those aren't the same things. And just making that little separation frees us up so much to have our teaching language be about comfort and to be about empowerment and say, hey, if you're uncomfortable in a posture, we don't need to be afraid of it. Nothing terrible just happened, but you get to make a different choice, and do something a little different, and see if you can find your way to more comfort. That's your job as a practitioner, and my job as a teacher to help guide you there, you know?

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, you've said loads of good stuff, which might need some background to them. So, if I go back, I just made a couple of notes about things that you said. First of all, you said, Early on in Downward Dog is helpful to know what muscles are switching on and which muscles are being stretched, tensioned, and even right there, someone might be, wait, what tension? And you make a great point, which you and I, fully know, but maybe someone who's listening to this might not, fully appreciate that, basically, a stretch is a tension. It's a tensile force. We think of tension as a bad thing, like, well, I'm tensing my shoulders because I'm nervous. But any time you are stretching, you are pulling the two ends of a muscle apart. You're applying a tension or a tensile load on those tissues. And actually, they, they respond favorably. We get tension. People can actually build strength through tensile loading. In fact, that is the thing that builds strength. There have been studies where you disconnect the nervous system on a test subject. So in rats, for example, you sever the nerve, innervating a muscle, but you still apply tension to that muscle. These poor lab rats, but they get stronger, their muscles hypertrophy, which suggests that is the tension that is the, mediator of building strength. So even a muscular engagement is a tensile force. You're tensioning the tissues of the body.

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, absolutely. And it really, it does kind of blow one's mind to think about this. You know, if we think about a standing forward fold or a half forward fold, that hamstring tension that lands when we spread out muscles, they land in a place where they've spread out as much as they're going to. That's the feeling of tension. And that's where people say, Oh, my hamstrings feel so tight, you know, because they're under tension and we're stretching them. Well, that's the exact same position. We would be in for a deadlift, holding a barbell, and that's, That's also tension. It's actually more tension, you know, so the parameters of that loading are going to change, but it's the same stuff.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, absolutely. That's something we touch on. And also in our book, we say, you know, a lunge is a lunge, whether you're doing it with your personal trainer, or you're doing it in a yoga class, you can be engaged in the same muscles, strengthen the same muscles.

Libby Hinsley:

That's right. And it also helps us to understand, and this gets into a zone of hypermobility narrative that is really common, which is that stretching will, Wreck you if you're hypermobile, or it will cause more hypermobility or it will cause all kinds of problems. And sometimes it does, but it's kind of hard to understand why. Because from a mechanical perspective, like we just said, applying a tensile load to tissues doesn't make them weaker. We know that it actually makes them stronger. It is a stimulus that, uh, produces an adaptive response if it's dosed appropriately. But it can also be an irritant that leads to more discomfort. And certainly if we're unstable, which isn't the same thing as hypermobile, but if our joints are unstable, they might actually come apart at end range. Like, that's not what we want either. But, but just if we're thinking about myofascial tissue, the muscle, the fascia that is intertwined with it, the tendon that connects it to the bone. Applying tension to that does not make it weaker.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, absolutely. We tend to think of it maybe as silly putty, and so if you pull the silly putty apart, yeah, that does make it weaker, but that's not how our tissues respond because we are living biological systems. Same with a joint, even applying a tensile load on the ligament doesn't make it more squidgy. It doesn't make it more like that silly putty. Actually, it makes them stronger.

Libby Hinsley:

Right. Yeah. It, it makes them a little putty like for a very short amount of time in the zone of minutes, you know, that, um,

Matthew Huy:

Yeah.

Libby Hinsley:

that viscoelastic response, but they recoil back. This is a great example actually of how understanding some anatomy, biomechanics helps us to know not to be afraid of some things and to just stop saying some habitual things about the body that they're like, Oh, you know, that's actually not accurate. And it's just feeding, a fear In our students about their own bodies. So, um, we can just throw it out. That's great. Well,

Matthew Huy:

So you touched on hypermobility. we talked about how joints don't get weaker long term by being stretched. Muscles don't get weaker by being stretched. They're not silly putty. But then also it could be an irritant, right? So that's where it takes, uh, a lot of work. a person centered approach or, you know, thinking about your own body and thinking my body might be different to the next person's body. Um, how about in the case of hypermobility? Do you think hypermobile people should do yin yoga?

Libby Hinsley:

I think it depends on the person and it also depends on the approach to the yin yoga practice. They're not always the same, you know? Um, I will say that for me. A practice where I do long, sustained stretches at end range does not feel good for my body the next day or later that day. It just leads to some tweakiness. so that's something that I get to study about my own response to practice. And honestly, that's kind of from years ago. I haven't practiced in that way in so long. It might be different now because my body has changed as bodies do. But it would be about studying a person's response. And this is where, like you said, it has to always be person specific. You know, a certain practice we could Say a yin yoga practice or an ashtanga vinyasa practice, whatever kind of practice it is. It doesn't have any meaning by itself. It isn't good. It's not bad. It's it's just a bunch of positions or movements. It only means something when a person practices it, and then the questions are all about that person and how they experience it and what their body tells them about it later that day, the next day, and they have to study that without expectation. Because you and I are going to do the same practice, and we're going to feel differently afterwards. And it's not because one of us did it wrong, or one of us needs to work on our alignment more to get it right, to have the right outcome. It's that we simply have different outcomes, and we get to trust that and stop making up a story that, Oh, I must have done it wrong, I just need to practice more, you know. Because someone told me this was supposed to feel good.

Matthew Huy:

hmm.

Libby Hinsley:

So, that is so problematic that someone told me this was supposed to feel good. Because now, I'm oriented around someone else's expectations, and I'm less likely to tune in and actually trust my actual own experience. So, I think we can do a lot with our teaching language that leads people back to that, and says, hey, This is just a practice. It's not a big deal. It's neutral. The question is, how does it feel for you? And is it supportive for you? Does it help you live with more ease in your life? You know, showing up for the things that actually matter in your life, which actually isn't the yin yoga posture. It's your family. It's whatever, the things that matter about life. And the yoga practice is here to support you showing up for those things with more ease and more presence and all that. So the question is, does it do that for you? And if it does, Awesome. Keep doing it. And if it doesn't, you can trust that and tweak it, modify it until it does. So that's what I would say about yin yoga. If I'm going to design a practice for someone with hypermobility, I can say, it's not going to look like yin yoga. Okay. That's not going to be my first choice. That doesn't mean it's going to wreck you or cause all kinds of problems. It's just that long holds, sustained passive stretching at end range are likely to be the most irritating type of stretching that a hypermobile body can do. is going to engage in, but you get to test it out, you

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, so it might work for one person and not the other.

Libby Hinsley:

absolutely, because there's so much, so much more to yin yoga than long end-range stretching. I mean, it's stillness. It's introspection. It's meditative. It's a lot of really good stuff. It's sensory input. You know, one of the things we know about the bendy body is that it's It's kind of starving for sensory input. It loves feeling stuff because it doesn't get as much mechanical information to its brain as efficiently as a non bendy body because of some of the proprioceptive deficits that come with it. Floppy collagen, let's say. Um, those mechanoreceptors aren't as easily stimulated to tell the brain what's happening in the body. But when we get into tension and we hang out there, ooh, now we get a bunch of sensory input to the brain. The brain gets to feel that it's in a body and that is such a grounding, soothing experience. So there's a lot of positive that can come out of that, really. The point is, In a bendy person who may have certain, predispositions for pain and kind of aches and pains, strains and sprains, then we, we need to be aware that, okay, they might have a negative response. It doesn't mean that that thing's dangerous. It just means that your body doesn't really love it that way. So let's try it a different way instead.

Matthew Huy:

Mm. So my question, you know, was, do you think a hypermobile person should practice yin? And your answer was five minutes. And I think that's how long it takes, because we need to stop expecting a clear cut yes, no. The reality is, life is much more complex than the black and white yes or no, and our bodies being, again, biological systems are much more complex than yes or no, or always good, always bad. it requires a nuanced answer. So I,

Libby Hinsley:

Well, it does. And the answer may change over time. So, you know, the answer, short answer is maybe.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah. I interviewed Bernie Clark. His favorite thing to say is yes, no, maybe it depends.

Libby Hinsley:

Totally. And that's, that's always the right answer. And, you know, yoga space is really the most like this of any space I've traversed, which is people take things so personally in yoga and they don't need to. This isn't personal. It doesn't mean anything about your character. If a yin yoga practice works for you or doesn't work for you, it doesn't matter that much. And I really, I've definitely did this in my own kind of life of yoga practice, which is to lose focus on what life is actually about. It isn't about your yoga practice. Your yoga is here to support your life, not the other way around. And, that's so important to remember and it helps us, I think, take things a little less personally and. impose almost like a moral judgment on our experience of yoga practice. Do you know what I mean?

Matthew Huy:

Yes,

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah.

Matthew Huy:

totally makes sense. Yeah, what is the point of yoga practice? Are you using it to serve you, or are you serving the yoga practice? As in, are you trying to mold your body into a position that it's not ready for because that's written in the yoga textbook, or are you trying to actually mold the yoga into your life to say, for example, I've had a really stressful week, so what I need for my practice day is just something really calm and still, you know, rather than getting my foot behind my head. For the 15th time this week.

Libby Hinsley:

What? Exactly. How can my yoga practice serve me for what's coming next? Maybe I've had a really stressful week and now I'm about to spend the weekend with my children and I'd like to show up as a kind mother, you know?

Matthew Huy:

sounds like this is a very personal for you.

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, exactly. Yes.

Matthew Huy:

Um, one other thing, that I like to say is, if you are doing something, then you can't be doing something else, right? So, yin might be great for someone who's hyper mobile, but at the same time, I definitely would not recommend it as the only thing that they do, even if they do find, you know, You know, joy in it, solace in it, peace and all that stuff. Because if you were just doing yin, you're not doing strength training, you're not doing meditation or, you're not doing cardiovascular endurance exercise. So there's probably some benefit to everything in the world, but we have to choose how we're going to spend our time. Bubble baths are great, but if you're taking a bubble bath, you're not spending time with your family. Family time is great, but if you're doing that, you're not working out. It's all about balance, isn't it?

Libby Hinsley:

It's a really good point. we have limited time and resources and energy and we got to make choices about how we use those things. So yes, if the yin yoga is all you're doing, it's probably not, not ideal, but if it's a piece of a bigger self care program, I think it can work for people and it does work for some people. Sure. Certainly.

Matthew Huy:

Just making a little left turn here, you said earlier about things yoga teachers could stop saying. Like, we can just leave that out of our vocabulary. You referred to the nocebo response, which is basically creating fear, or even potentially pain, just out of the expectation of it. It's the opposite to the placebo response. This is well documented in the literature. so what are those things that you think yoga teachers should leave behind? What, what are we saying wrong? And beyond yoga teachers, even just humans, there's things that humans say wrong.

Libby Hinsley:

Oh my goodness. So many things. I mean, we could start just with the human narrative of like, I have a bad back, you know, or.

Matthew Huy:

bad, back. Yeah.

Libby Hinsley:

I've got a bad disc. I threw it out 20 years ago. It's still bothering me or whatever. Or I've got bad knees. That's a big one. but I think in yoga teaching, so many of our anatomical cues, the way that we describe, How we should be in a posture can be re evaluated because so many of those cues for yoga teachers are unexamined. And I was the same way. I just repeated what I was taught to say about certain postures, but I never really knew why I would say that. Why would we want, you know, the warrior one done with a pelvis, uh, facing this way Instead of that way, for example, why does that matter? What makes it better to say square my hips to the front of the room in Warrior One? Is that better? And if so, why? And if I'm going to say it, I better have a good reason for it. That's my take on these anatomical cues. If you're going to say it in yoga class, be able to back it up. And that requires some digging into biomechanics and what you often will find in almost every case, in my opinion, is that you don't actually need to say it,

Matthew Huy:

Uh

Libby Hinsley:

you know, there may be some cases where you really care about that. or you might care about it for that practice. Cause you're going for a certain type of experience that day, but it doesn't mean that on a different day, You wouldn't practice the posture in a different way for a different type of experience. So all the different ways we could land in each posture will give us a different experience, will have a different effect. Their, you know, correctness and incorrectness in my view don't have as much relevance here. It's just what are we getting out of the posture? What do we want out of it? We're going to cue it accordingly. But things like, do this to protect this. Almost always, we can leave that out.

Matthew Huy:

Leave out the"to protect," yeah, absolutely.

Libby Hinsley:

protect this, because we have to follow it, protect it from what? And why is this inherently dangerous for that part? Yoga postures aren't that crazy, you know, unless you're doing some really wild stuff in yoga class. We're just doing essentially some pretty basic human movements without a big external load. You know,

Matthew Huy:

It is safe.

Libby Hinsley:

It's pretty darn safe

Matthew Huy:

it. Yeah. Episode one of my podcast talks about how yoga is safe. And actually we all need to be doing physical activity: 150 minutes per week or 75 minutes vigorous intensity plus two days of strength training. Those are the World Health Organization guidelines for physical activity for pretty much everyone. And look at the American College of Sports Medicine Guidelines for, Exercise Testing and Prescription. They go into specific medical conditions like osteoporosis, what is the right amount of exercise for them. And it's the same thing. And actually, in that specific case, it's more high intensity, high velocity, high load have the most benefits. Of course, it has to be done in an intelligent way, and adapted to the individual, but with very few exceptions, maybe, for example, a cancer patient undergoing chemotherapy with an active infection. Okay, probably the physical activity guidelines wouldn't apply to that person. For pretty much everyone else, these are the basic amount of exercise guidelines that we should be adhering to.

Libby Hinsley:

Absolutely. And what we're doing in yoga class is not unsafe. One of my mottos I try to instill in people is normal human movement is not unsafe. We do not need to be afraid of these things. We can default to comfort. When it comes to yoga asana, we can just 99 percent of the time default to comfort. We don't need to worry about is our foot on our knee? Oh my god, the knee's gonna snap in half if I put my foot on it in tree pose. That's not reality. That's not gonna happen. Or if I bend my knee past my ankle in warrior two, whoo, you know, the knee, the knee can go past the ankle and go as far past as it wants. That is not unsafe. It doesn't mean it's uncomfortable, you know, or it doesn't mean it is comfortable. So we can default to comfort. That's always appropriate. Um, Engage your core to protect your back. That whole thing. That, what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. And it actually isn't supported in the literature either. You know, um, having a rigid abdomen does not help your back. You know, if anything, it might. Cause you more trouble. but we know that even if we had weak abdominal muscles, that's less correlated with back pain than say weak hip muscles, weak gluteal muscles. So there's these old stories, you know, that are perpetuated because people are just, just in case I'm going to just say this, cause I really don't want my students to get hurt. So again, it comes from a good place, but. It causes more harm, actually, because it instills fear in your students about something that's inherently quite safe. And it takes away their own empowerment to investigate their experience and make choices about their position and about their movement that will feel better for them. We can just take safety off the table. Now, in some cases, like you mentioned, Osteoporosis, a recent hip replacement. We have some places where we've got some precautions that are appropriate, but I'm talking about for the general population that's doesn't have any major things going on. They're coming into yoga class, you know, or rounding the spine. I mean, there's still in some circles, flexing the spine is a problem somehow, you know,

Matthew Huy:

Never rolled up from a forward fold.

Libby Hinsley:

Right. The sky will fall. Your discs will explode. You know, it's, it's some weird stuff out there. Um, and we can do without it. I had a recent group, I was teaching to a 300 hour teacher training group, and many of them had been together in their 200 hour training where they reported, and they were still under this impression that their anatomy teacher taught them that if they flexed and extended, excuse me, flexed and extended the spine repetitively back and forth like cat cow, that their spine might break in half like a credit card, um, or that it might snap in half like a paperclip if you bend it back and forth a bunch. And they had been so afraid of the spine snapping in half ever since. You know, and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry about that.'cause that's so sad that they've been walking around with that level of fear teaching yoga, how much anxiety that must have produced for them. And that is so far outside of the reality of biological tissues. I, I don't even have words for it. You know,

Matthew Huy:

So, you know, my last episode, I interviewed Bernie Clark, and within his books, he twice mentions the spine as a credit card. He used that as an analogy. So, I talked to him about it. And he had a much more nuanced discussion on it.

Libby Hinsley:

Uhhuh

Matthew Huy:

And so I could understand his point of view better, you know, that, if you're cold doing 108 drop backs, like dropping back to wheel. And then coming back up might not be the best option and might create an injury or aggravate an injury. Right. So I was like, yeah, I get that. but that single comment, that single analogy, spine, credit card, can be taken out of context. So I know Bernie didn't mean it in the way that he intended it, and I think it's taken on a life of its own.

Libby Hinsley:

Quite, quite certainly it has, but even on a cold spine doing a bunch of dropbacks, that's not a credit card spine. That's still a spine, still biological tissues. It's not a good idea. That's not going to go well. You know, it may lead to some injury or some pain, but it won't snap in half. That's not happening.

Matthew Huy:

credit cards are made of a form of PVC, basically, like PVC windows, piping, that sort of thing. And yeah, if you do bend those back and forth, they will, they will break the PVC, but our spines are not like that.

Libby Hinsley:

literally break in half.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah,

Libby Hinsley:

But you're right. Sometimes those, those little phrases, they kind of get blown up and now we're afraid of doing a little bridge and then hugging our knees, right? We're not thinking cold spine, a hundred drop backs. We're thinking bridge to Apanasana. Okay.

Matthew Huy:

yes, yeah, absolutely. And can I just say also, when you hug your knees into your chest, you're not going into much flexion of the spine anyway. It's mainly your hips are going to flexion. Someone might have minimal spinal flexion in that position.

Libby Hinsley:

That's actually that little snippet that you just said is a great example of why studying a little anatomy is so helpful because let's say your students are in Apanasana, what are the moving parts? Often that's my question to my anatomy students. Okay, let's look at this posture. What parts of you are moving? Is it the hips? Are the hips flexed? Is the spine flexed? Let's look at these parts and really understand what is happening, because we might have an assumption about a pose like Apanasana that isn't that accurate. It turns out, gosh, we're barely flexing the spine, but wow, look at all that hip flexion. That's helpful to understand what's really happening in the posture.

Matthew Huy:

absolutely. And even just to know what"flexed" means, you just used that term and, and, you know, the common thing that we think of is flex your muscles, a muscle cannot flex technically, only a joint can be flexed, or it can be extended. So even though we use that term, A muscle does not flex. So this is why it's also important to understand the terminology. Flexion is just t a joint position where, uh, basically like your femur is moving more towards your torso. That's all, you know,

Libby Hinsley:

You're right. Yeah, and it's just how it is. People ask all the time, but why is this flexion? I say it just is. Is there not a reason? It's just what it is called. You know. And you know when you're learning anatomy, there's sometimes just not a way around just remembering it. And that comes with frequency, repetition, repetition, repetition, you know, sealing it in feeling it in your body, all that stuff. But there's not like Not a real good reason for the language of anatomy sometimes. It's just, we have to learn it so that we can speak to other people who also speak about the body and we know what each other is saying.

Matthew Huy:

Great. So you mentioned cues that yoga teachers should not say. Does that tie into your program about decoding cues for yoga teachers? What is that all about?

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, so that's a workshop I teach every now and then kind of to get people interested in anatomy, honestly, to understand this is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, in where anatomy matters to yoga teachers is in their cueing. So if I am teaching, you know, pigeon poses, that's a cue that I often use as an example. What I say about what to do with your front shin reflects my understanding about your hip and what is, how the hip works. And if I understand the hip better, I will cue this differently so that it's more reasonable for my students. And I'll know what not to say about it because I just don't need to worry about it. So I'll just take five common class cues that I've heard or used to say and deconstruct them, each one, looking at, okay, what is going on in this? What's the moving part? How much is it moving? How much do normal hips move? And what's the range of what we should expect? And it's a really fun way to teach people how to unpack their own habitual cues, record yourself teaching. You know, notice what you say all the time, and then get really curious. Why do I say that? What is that about? What do I understand about the knee? Why would I not want it to go past the ankle? Is that a thing? Is it not a thing? Or is it simply that I'm describing a shape? And that's where it ends. These are just descriptive cues. They're not about correctness or safety. They're just, I have to say something about what this posture looks like so that my students can replicate it. You know, oftentimes anatomical cues are just that. They're descriptive, but they went from describing a shape to taking on all this, all these other layers of meaning about correctness and safety, and we don't need to go there with them, I think. You just leave it at describing. So that's, that's kind of the inroad. Cues are your inroad to anatomy.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, yeah. And earlier you said about scoring off the hips in Warrior One and how we don't need to say that, but actually I can think of an example when you would need to say that. If someone's doing Warrior Two. And you want them to be doing warrior one. The quickest thing is to say, can you try to square your hips towards the front of the mat? And what I'd like to say is, there's a difference between a positional cue and an intention cue. Like, so to say, your hips must be squared to the front of the mat, that's a position. And anything that is different to that position is wrong, therefore. But if you say, have the intention of squaring your hips forward, then that will get people to, you know, square the hips forward and therefore potentially create more stretch on the hip flexors of the back leg, which one is one of the essences of the pose, one of the benefits of the pose. So yeah, think of the intention of the pose rather than trying to match up a certain position is the way I think about it.

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly. You know that when we talk about that cue of squaring your pelvis to the front of the room, that's exactly how I talk about it. This is to differentiate it from a lateral lunge. This is a forward leaning lunge, whereas Warrior 2 is a lateral lunge. We could describe them that way. They look different. And one way to describe it is I could say, turn your pelvis towards the front. I could say turn your belly button towards the front. Possibly that's, a more beneficial cue. I don't know. We could try a bunch of things. But the question is, what gets your class to face forward in this lunge instead of sideways? But, you know, if we could take it a couple steps farther and require that your ASIS, you know, on both sides of your pelvis is pointing forwards. And if we're really caught up on that happening, we need to have a really good reason why that's better than letting the pelvis just shift a little on the diagonal, you know, and what changes. So I'll have people feel you have a walking anatomy laboratory, a walking biomechanics laboratory right here. Stand up and feel what happens. Feel what happens in your sacrum. Feel what happens in your back knee. How does that feel if you do it this way or that way? You get to find out, and that'll help lead you to what you decide to actually say about that posture.

Matthew Huy:

I love that. Whenever I teach anatomy, I usually start by asking people their name, if they have any anatomy experience. And one person said, Yeah, I'm 32. So I have 32 years of anatomy experience, which is. totally true. And you should never discount your own experience.

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly.

Matthew Huy:

There's a problem in deferring to someone else's knowledge. Like, you're the yoga teacher, so you would know better than me what I should be doing with my knee in pigeon pose. But actually, no, trust your own body to some degree also. Largely. You're the only one, as I always say, you're the only one having the experience in your body. People can recommend or guide you to do other things, but you are the only one who can actually experience that feeling. So, it's such an important lesson.

Libby Hinsley:

it is. And that's where our teaching can become so empowering for our students. And such a better use of our teaching time than to pretend we know better about anything actually about this person's body or their life at all, you know, to guide them into a study of their own experience. I think that's the best use of the yoga teaching really. it'll serve them for so long to come. But yeah, you're the only one who's having, who's in your body and you are the expert. And if you don't know much about it yet, well, it's high time you start learning about it. And yoga practice is a perfect place to learn about it and get to know yourself in that way. Because we're all different. And that's the other thing that comes along with a little bit of anatomy study is people get to appreciate, Oh, I'd had no idea. Yeah. That your femur bone, a little different from my femur bone, sits in the acetabulum on your pelvis a little differently than it does on mine. And that actually matters for what movements and postures are available to us. And so it's not personal. Sometimes it's just anatomy, you know. And if you're practicing a posture for 10 years and you're forcing it, you just can't get that shape. Guess what? It's because you're not going to. Because your hip won't go there or whatever the part is, you know.

Matthew Huy:

Do you know about the bone photos? You must, on Paul and Susie Grilley's

Libby Hinsley:

Yes, I use those bone photos all the time. I really love that he, you know, has made those available for people to use. They're fascinating. They really open people's eyes about, oh, anatomical variation. And I always tell people it was Paul Grilley, actually, who came to Asheville and did a workshop. I want to say it was 2006. This tiny little studio, mat to mat. Of course, I was his example of the bendy person, you know, um, and he showed us the bones and talked about this variation in anatomy. And I, I was a new yoga teacher teaching for a year or so at that point. And I mean, my brain was exploding. I was like, Oh my God, this is fascinating. And I remember him saying, this is actually basic anatomy. This is basic anatomy. Basic stuff that any PT would learn, any orthopedist would learn. And that's when I got the idea to go to PT school, actually.

Matthew Huy:

Did you actually learn that in PT school and

Libby Hinsley:

That's a good question. It's a really good question. I'd have to go back and really, I want to say we probably did. Not so explicitly, you know, but implicitly just, for example, in our cadaver lab, we had six, different body donors in the cadaver lab, and I, my group worked on one, but we would look at all of them. And part of what we would always look at was this comparative sort of lens to say, wow, in that body, it looks this way in that body, it's this way. And they're similar, but there there's variation on the same themes. So definitely that came through, you know, but it wasn't like looking at six femur bones, and the angle of The femoral neck and head and that type of thing.

Matthew Huy:

In the show notes, I'll include a link to the website with these bone photos. If you're not sure what we're talking about, you can have a look. One example that, I share with, if I'm teaching anatomy within these bone photos is how someone can have a different neck femur length, how their acetabulum or the hip socket can point in different directions. And so if you're acetabula are pointing forwards more. You have a short neck. what would happen to the femur as you go out into your side splits? Then you can see turning and people realize Oh, you're gonna run into the back of the acetabulum. You're gonna run to the back of the hip socket, which is why some people cannot do the side splits. You know, of course, we also have the, all the soft tissues, our fascia, our muscles, and even skin affects our flexibility to a small degree. So all those things, and those are the things that we can work with, but at the same time, you just might be in one of those bodies is not built for side splits. So don't give yourself a hard time. It's not because your soul is not pure.

Libby Hinsley:

exactly.

Matthew Huy:

It's not because your hips are not pure.

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly. It's not

Matthew Huy:

with a

Libby Hinsley:

correct. It's not because you still need to work on your mom issues or whatever that's living in your books, right? All that. It's just, it's just not, that's, that's just not it. And the things that are changeable through practice and have a training effect on like soft tissues, those will change with practice in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't take years, takes weeks to months. And then what you're dealing with is what you got. And again, it's not a character flaw, you know? Um, So you can be gentle with yourself on that, but you're right. In a yoga class, we're not going to know, is it the bone shape that's limiting this person's mobility here, or is it their muscle tension that is 100%, you know, at the whim of your nervous system's ability to relax your muscles or not? Or is it the quality of your connective tissue that's more or less like a steel cable and doesn't want to move much? You know, we don't know what things are, um, at play. So we can assume that they all are, and we can assume that through practice some things will change. And it's an empirical question how much they'll change. We get to find out, but again, the changeable parts, the changeable tissues, the adaptable tissues, let's say, um, will change and adapt relatively quickly. You don't need to be still cranking on it 10 years later, expecting it to change. Yeah,

Matthew Huy:

I totally agree. You're singing to the choir here about, about yeah, how important some basic anatomy and physiology knowledge can be and how empowering it can be. And I like you talked about. If you can't do Full Pigeon, it's not because of your mom issues. And I'm going to share a story here. A friend of mine did a teacher training with a very well known teacher, whom I will not name. But basically, this teacher was going up to one of the practitioners, you know, one of the students on the teacher training, who was, you know, Not doing full pigeon, and the teacher said,"What are you holding on to? What emotional baggage are you holding on to that won't let you go deeper into it?" And it's like, whoa, that is putting all the onus on on this individual. Like, it is your fault that you cannot come into this version of Full Pigeon, which I, saw in a textbook, and so you should be able to do it. like, wow. yoga can be a hugely emotional experience, as can any form of exercise, you know, there's the runner's high, people talk about having spiritual experiences while running, for example. Um, so yeah, yoga can be an emotional experience, but let's use some common sense here and not say if you can't do pigeon, you've got some emotional baggage that you're holding on to.

Libby Hinsley:

I don't even, I don't even have words for that anymore. It's, it's just, it's so disempowering. I mean,

Matthew Huy:

Yeah.

Libby Hinsley:

beyond it being nonsense, it is disempowering for your students to lay that on them. If there was some emotional baggage in there, they get to discover that on their own, you know? Your job is to guide them to have those things revealed through their own practice. Not to like slam a judgment on them. It's so ableist too. There's so many things wrong with that. It's, there's so many things, you know, and they're so wrong. That ableism and that disempowerment are really harmful. So again, that's another great example. If we're going to speak about the body, let's just speak about the body. Leave out that clutter I call it over top of it and let's talk about yoga Also, we can actually say less about the body when we understand it more we end up saying less about it and we get to say more about yoga And that's what you're there to teach and it's enough you know and we talked at the very beginning about how yoga teachers feel pressured to know all the things about all the things and Really what they're bringing the magic they're bringing is the yoga. It is enough.

Matthew Huy:

Mm mm

Libby Hinsley:

You know, it's really, that's the stuff people are coming for. So

Matthew Huy:

It's less work for a teacher and it's, I think, quite often more beautiful for practitioner, just to have a little bit of silence. You know? I love it when the teacher puts us in a pose and then it's just quiet and it's let's us marinate there. You know?

Libby Hinsley:

marinate. I love that. Yes. I love it. Love it. I use that word a lot. Um, I'm not necessarily the best. I'm real wordy. I know that, but I agree that it's so nice to give some space to people to just have their experience. We're sending people inside. You know, I, I tell people these postures, we're not trying to get anywhere with them. There's nowhere to go. Where we're going is always inside our experience. They're just our like vehicle in that moment. And we get so focused on how we're doing them, like where the foot is and the angle of the pelvis and all this stuff that we miss out on the whole inside part, which is the whole part. It's what we're there to do, you know? So, so it ends up cluttering us up, you know?

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, exactly. In dancer's pose with your arm overhead, you don't suddenly earn a million dollars if you can finally grab your foot. You know, you don't get, you don't become instantly happier. You don't save your marriage. Your kids don't go to Oxford University. Nothing changes. You just can grab your foot. Nothing changes. And yet, I am going to still encourage you to try to do that. I'm going to help you get there because that's the practice. It is a practice of seeing what your body can do, challenging yourself, steadying the mind. And if, you know, I'm an inch away from it, yeah, I'm going to try to reach a little bit further. And that's part of the beauty of it. At the same time, we need to be unattached to actually grabbing onto it. Okay, I grabbed it, nothing changed. I didn't grab onto it, nothing changed. It's the same with handstand. I'm going to keep working on it, even if I don't balance in it.

Libby Hinsley:

Well, exactly. And that's the great metaphor for life. It's like nothing happens when you grab your foot or if you ever grab it, nothing really changes, but you've learned how to practice something that's hard. And where that really comes in is if you do wanna save your marriage, or if you do wanna be a better parent or whatever, you know what I mean? It's about learning to practice, have a goal, take a step by step approach to the goal, consistency. Those are, those are transferable skills, that we can really get out of yoga, or we understand our inner experience enough and have enough self awareness to know that, you know what, this one's actually not what I want to save. I actually do want to leave or whatever. These are the big questions that really matter about life. And, and I do think there's a real direct way that our yoga practice helps us make those decisions and understand ourselves better so that we can live better in that way. I don't want to make a judgment about saving a marriage or not. Um, sometimes it's best to leave, which was my case too. But anyway, you know what I mean? The question is, what matters to you? What are your values? And then, how can you take step by step, approach to making the changes in your life you need so that you can be happy?

Matthew Huy:

Well, exactly. And even that decision to leave, I can take strength, inner strength, which our yoga practice can help develop. I liked how you talked about the transferable skills because in yoga, yeah, we do put ourselves in difficult positions and we stay there and we see what happens and we see if we can calm ourselves down through our breath and be steady and focused. Yeah. while holding onto our foot behind our head, even though holding your foot behind your head doesn't actually matter. It is a totally contrived situation. No one put you here. It's not going to save your life. And yet let's give it our full effort and try to keep grabbing our foot.

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah,

Matthew Huy:

It's this weird duality, this weird balance, isn't it? It doesn't matter. And yet it's the only thing that does matter in this moment.

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, exactly. It's got thread that needle, you know, I do think there's the good stuff is right in between that It's in that duality. Exactly.

Matthew Huy:

Awesome. Anything else you'd like to share, Libby?

Libby Hinsley:

would say, I guess, yoga teachers listening. I hope the conversation has helped them have some perspective that, like, take some pressure off, you know, number one inspires some curiosity about learning more anatomy because I think it can be so fun. And I think it can be so liberating. And especially if we approach it without so much, you know, seriousness and, you know, kind of, I like to bring some silliness to it whenever possible. Cause I do think we tend to take ourselves too seriously, but number one, it can be fun. It can be liberating. And then also, bring the yoga. That's the magic that you bring into your students and take some pressure off of yourself to know everything. Get okay with being like, I don't know, but I'm curious about that too. I'm learning, you know, And that's okay to say. I just, I can't stand the feeling. of yoga teachers being anxious in their teaching because I have felt that, and it's just, ew, it doesn't feel good to be scared about what you're saying. I, I, I love to alleviate that for people when I can.

Matthew Huy:

A quick little tip I find is just to ask a question rather than to say do this, you know, like my knee is bothering me Okay, do this How about asking a question? Well, what if we adjust your foot like this? Okay, does that make it feel better? Uh, no, not really. Okay, what if we adjust your hip like this? Oh yeah, that's better. At the same time, in wheel pose, are your glutes engaging? Oh, what does it feel like if you engage them? What does it feel like if you don't engage them? So, ask questions, be curious. I think that's the, the quickest way to get out of this idea that we need to know everything there is to know, and we need to be able to prescribe every single, yoga pose to help every person. Just ask questions.

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly. And that's, honestly, that's what I think really good clinicians do, like PTs and others. They're at, they're curious. They're asking questions. They don't know everything either and the body will reveal and guide us. That's exactly what I do in the clinic. You know, I always tell people I'm going to see what I see and we're going to address what I'm seeing and your body will tell us if we're on the right track and if not we're going to look again and then always there's an element in the human organism of mystery. We're not going to understand it all. It's a mysterious reality here, this body. We, get to know it as much as we can, but there's always a gap, between what we know about it and what we could know about it. What's even knowable about it and all of that. So like you're in the UK, mind the gap, that's the t shirt I want, but it's like mind the knowledge gap, you know, between, um, what I know now and what I could know, and that's always going to keep me curious.

Matthew Huy:

Mind the knowledge gap. I like that. I think you're onto a new motto. It's very, very niche You gotta know it.

Libby Hinsley:

yeah.

Matthew Huy:

brilliant. Mind the

Libby Hinsley:

you know. If you know, you know, We could just have Mind the Gap, but it's like, it's about anatomy or whatever. It could be about anything, actually.

Matthew Huy:

Yeah, exactly. The more I know, the more I realize, the less that I know. That kind of sort of thing.

Libby Hinsley:

Correct.

Matthew Huy:

right. Brilliant, Libby. So, what if people want to follow you? What should they do?

Libby Hinsley:

Yeah, so I've got a website. It's just libbyhinsley. com That's the easiest place to go so you can find links there to all my stuff I do have an anatomy program for yoga teachers, community online program called anatomy bites so you can go to anatomybites.com And I'm on Instagram. I try to be regularly@LibbyHinsleyPT. So those are the best ways to find me

Matthew Huy:

Great. And in case anyone didn't get that pun, anatomy bites, like hard, but also anatomy bites because you do it in small bits, right?

Libby Hinsley:

Exactly. Thank you for getting it. It's for people who think anatomy bites and they're going to discover that actually doesn't. It's actually fun when you do it in bite sized chunks. Oh,

Matthew Huy:

And nothing has made me more appreciative and grateful than learning about how our body works. It's just an amazing organism that we are lucky enough to inhabit. And if you're 80 years old listening to this and thinking, oh, you know, my body's got all these problems, how lucky are you to have inhabited this body for 80 years? I hope to be 80.

Libby Hinsley:

Me too. I mean, that will be so lucky. It is an, it's a magnificent thing. I don't think we give it enough credit for working as well as it does. You know, we get real focused on how it has problems, but oh my gosh, more of it's working well than isn't. And that's, an amazing thing.

Matthew Huy:

Great. All right. Thank you, Libby. Well, I look forward to catching up with you, following you. and hearing more from you.

Libby Hinsley:

Likewise. Thanks so much for having me.

Matthew Huy:

All right. Thanks.

Saz:

Thank you for listening to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast. We would be grateful if you would leave a review and a five star rating. Be sure to tune in next time for more science based knowledge to get enlightened and help others.