4: Gut Health and Healing with Nikki Kenward

Matt is joined by craniosacral therapist and author Nikki Kenward. They discuss Nikki's journey, including her traumatic scuba diving accident, her work in craniosacral therapy, and her innovative concept of post-traumatic gut disorder. The conversation dives deep into the anatomy and physiology of the gut, touching on the enteric nervous system, neuroplasticity, and the interconnectedness of body systems. Nikki also shares practical tips for improving gut health and the importance of fun, play, and creativity in maintaining a healthy nervous system.

Follow Nikki on Instagram @Nikki.Circus and check out her YouTube channel 'Colon to Cosmos' for further insights and resources. 

Resources mentioned: 

• 'It's All in the Gut' and 'Overcoming Chronic Digestive Conditions: Release the Visceral Layers of Post-Traumatic Gut Disorder' by Nikki Kenward
• 'Molecules of Emotion' by Candace Pert
• 'The Body Keeps the Score' by Bessel Van der Kolk.

00:00 Introduction to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast
00:27 Meet Nikki Kenward: A Multifaceted Healer
01:28 Nikki's Vibrant Lifestyle and Circus Adventures
03:53 Understanding Craniosacral Therapy (CST)
06:35 Nikki's Traumatic Scuba Diving Experience
11:51 The Aftermath: PTSD and Gut Disorders
17:49 Healing and Growth: Overcoming Trauma
20:12 The Enteric Nervous System: The Second Brain
24:02 The Gut-Brain Connection
24:36 Serotonin and Dopamine in the Gut
24:57 Microbiota and Mental Health
25:53 The Enteric Nervous System
29:24 Impact of Trauma on Gut Health
31:35 Emotional Memory in Cells
38:10 Epigenetics and Gut Health
41:37 Practical Tips for Gut Health
44:17 The Role of Yoga and Play
45:49 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

Please note that this transcription is automatically generated and may contain errors.

Introduction to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast 

Saz: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, where we take a deep dive into the worlds of anatomy, physiology and science to help you feel more confident and inspired as a yoga teacher. Now here's your host, Matthew Huy.  
 
 

Matt: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast.  
 
 

Meet Nikki Kenward: A Multifaceted Healer 
 
 

Matt: I'm your host, Matthew Huy, and today I am joined by none other than a good friend of mine,  Nikki Kenward, and a  brief introduction about Nikki. She is a cranio sacral therapist, and I'll ask her what that is in case you don't know. Uh, she's a Yoga teacher. 
 
 

She is the author of two books. It's all in the Gut, which is the first edition to the second book, overcoming Chronic Digestive Conditions, release the Visceral Layers of Post-Traumatic Gut [00:01:00] Disorder. and then she has a, masters in Circus directing of all things. And we'll get into that also. so with that formal introduction, hello Nikki.  
 
 

Nikki: Hi Matt and uh, it's really lovely to be here and talk to you. 
 
 

Matt: Great. Thank you. It's great to to have you here. Okay, so that was the formal introduction of who Nikki is. You know, you gotta get through that. She wrote a book and all that stuff. And now let me tell you about the real Nikki.  
 
 

Nikki: Oh  
 
 

Nikki's Vibrant Lifestyle and Circus Adventures 
 
 

Matt: So, Nikki, if you don't mind me saying your age, I believe 67.  
 
 

Nikki: no, I'm 70.  
 
 

Matt: my gosh. What happened?  
 
 

Nikki: I know, I  
 
 

Matt: But three years ago you were six, seven. I don't get it. Okay. So you're 70 now and this woman is incredible. She's vibrant. And basically nothing stops. Or I attended, Nikki's Christmas party just a couple of weeks ago and you might think, oh, sitting around and drinking wine and that sort of thing. No, not at Nikki's party. 
 
 

So it was [00:02:00] a circus workshop hosted by a local circus performer. We were on the, not quite trapeze, but we were on the aerial silks. We were flinging ourselves around, we were playing kids games and. I had my children there also who are eight and 10. We had the best time and um, that gives you a hint of what kind of, parties, Nikki hosts and what kind of a fun, loving  
 
 

person she is.  
 
 

So thanks for that party, Nikki.  
 
 

Nikki: Oh, I had such a good time.  
 
 

Matt: Brilliant. Brilliant. Alright, so I did hint at that circus directing masters that you have. So before we jump into the serious stuff about your book and everything, which is also gonna be enjoyable, could you tell us a bit about this circus directing masters? 
 
 

What's that all about?  
 
 

Nikki: yeah. So, well, you know, I was a contemporary dancer. My first degree was in contemporary dance at Labon in London many years ago, and I got into doing some circus training with KT Cartwheel, our local [00:03:00] circus artist and did some trapeze and hoop and silks, and I loved it. And that really gave me the desire to be creative and make work for the stage again. but not in a pure dance way. I wanted to be able to use all these lovely vertical things that were now possible and juggling and song and text. So I decided to do an MA in directing circus, um, which was, yeah, loads of fun and loads of work, 
 
 

Matt: Yeah, I could imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Every master's is, I think,  
 
 

Nikki: As you know.  
 
 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Also, um, and I was even in one of Nikki's Circus shows before she pursued this master's. It was a crazy work, which I had a great time doing so, and I'm very grateful for that chance to have been involved in your crazy little circus performance.  
 
 

Nikki: Yeah.  
 
 

Understanding Craniosacral Therapy (CST) 
 
 

Matt: Alright, so you're also a cranio craniosacral therapist in addition to being a Yoga [00:04:00] teacher. Um, so can you tell us what CST is  
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, so craniosacral therapy  
 
 

was developed by a man called Dr. John up Ledger from the states, from osteopathy. Its roots are in osteopathy. so it's a form of body work. It's hands on. It's very light touch because our focus is the head, neck, and spine cranium down to sacrum, as you can imagine. From the title, it's light Touch because we work with mainly fascia fluids, so we are working with the nervous system dural membranes, that line the cranium and the vertebrae of the spine, and we're working with the fluids that are involved in that core system. We work all over the body with the fascia, but that's our core. Focus, if you like, for our work, and it doesn't respond to, a heavy or a sudden touch. It would just not do anything. 
 
 

Matt: Yeah, it, [00:05:00] it sounds like it's almost about creating a safe space for people to relax into and accept the touch.  
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, I think safety is a. Big part of our work because often there are emotional aspects that come up as we work with people or trauma or stress challenge. But also it's because of the nature of the fascia. You know, as you I'm sure know, it has collagen in it as one of its main components, and if you've ever mixed up corn flour and water in a bowl, it's thicko tropic. 
 
 

So if you product it. Firmly with your finger, it'll feel like wood or concrete. But if you put your finger in gently and slowly, um, mo, it will flow in a sustained way. And so fascia will respond to that. So we need to, um, approach it in the same way with our palpation and all nerve fibers, you know, we're working with nerves all the time, are 50% [00:06:00] fascia at least. 
 
 

Matt: That's right. Yeah. All of them are covered by fascia and, we mention, that non-Newtonian fluid. In our book when we wrote about synovial fluid and how it thickens upon force upon a sharp force, which has its advantages. So if you're landing from a jump, you want your synovial fluid  
 
 

in the joints to be nice and firm and  
 
 

steady to help create that stability. 
 
 

So it's not a fault of it, but I can understand the logic in you trying to create that safe, warm, comforting space. So, um, approaching it in in that way,  
 
 

Nikki: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 
 
 

Nikki's Traumatic Scuba Diving Experience 
 
 

Matt: so your book starts by talking about quite a traumatic accident you had involving scuba diving. So would you mind telling us about that please?  
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, so I used to do some scuba diving, mostly in the Red Sea. It was lovely and warm, you know. and then I had a break for over a year and I was in Ireland. I was encouraged against my better judgment, which was a [00:07:00] big lesson to listen to my better judgment, 
 
 

to do a dive in cold water in semi-dry suit with like balaclava and gloves and Giles on. 
 
 

I'd never. Worn all that stuff before. and the descent was quite fast. There was no visual reference. Uh, it was just like big blue sea and a wall of rock to one site. So I already felt quite stressed and challenged. Trying to keep up with the other people in the dive and, um, be in that whole new, um, dry suit and equipment that I was wearing. And of course, when you go down, everything compresses. So when you're in a big, thick suit, if you don't tighten your belt, then the belt might start to slide off. 
 
 

Matt: you mean the weight belt which holds you down? Yeah.  
 
 

Nikki: exactly. So I knew when I got to the bottom already feeling challenged, I had to go [00:08:00] forwards to tighten my belt. but I felt already, I. I stressed, I felt overloaded by this task because I was stressed and I went forward and I tightened my belt, but then my regulator in my mouth filled with water, and so I, you know, followed the protocols. I pressed the button. I. Blew into it to get rid of the water, but it kept refilling and refilling. And as you can imagine, I'm running out of there. And the it that seemed to go on forever, it probably wasn't forever, but it felt like it. And, I couldn't take a breath until I'd emptied the water and I couldn't empty the water without it refilling. So in the end, you get to a point where the body will just breathe anyway. It just will, you cannot hold your breath any longer. So I breathed and got a mouth and a throat full of [00:09:00] salt water, which was deeply terrifying and unpleasant. And I think my life was saved by the fact I went into Lary, Ringo spasm that saved it from going all the way into my lungs. 
 
 

Matt: what is that spasm? Could you  
 
 

describe  
 
 

what  
 
 

Nikki: Ringo spasm? So your larynx and everything goes completely into spasm so it can't get any further. 
 
 

Matt: Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: So that saved my life. 'cause not everybody, about 10% of people do that and the others don't, and they're like curtains. So I did. But the only problem with that is then of course you are asphyxiating. So then you're not drowning, but you are suffocating. So at that point I am in a state of absolute terror and all I can hear is the squeaking of my, throat. Just like, 'cause I'm suffocating, right? 
 
 

My regulators out of my [00:10:00] mouth that's lost long time ago and I'm literally waiting to die. Um, and then I went into this, so talk about experiencing fight, flight, freeze. 
 
 

And then finally, you know, well flop in my case nearly I, um, I, I suddenly all the pain went and I entered this very calm state, which was a big opiate hit. And, um. I can remember just floating there in this big blue space in a state of complete calm. And the only thing I felt was, I'm really sad to leave my children now 'cause they're not grown up yet. And that was the sadness. At that point, the dive master actually noticed that somebody in their party was drowning, said with heavy sarcasm  
 
 

Matt: Hmm. [00:11:00]  
 
 

Nikki: grabbed my jacket and pulled me quickly up to the surface. But of course I couldn't breathe, so I couldn't expand my lungs. So I got to the surface, came out, freeze into fight and flight, which is what we do. 
 
 

As you know, we can't go. Out in any other way. So I'm screaming and shouting and sobbing, and I have, turns out I've damaged my heart and lungs, but mostly I damaged my mind, 
 
 

Matt: Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: um, through that experience. Yeah. But I did live to tell the tale, as you know. 
 
 

Matt: Yeah, thank goodness. And you say you damaged your mind, so even if there wasn't any clear brain damage, you know there's difference between the brain and the mind, and so you say you damaged your mind. What does that mean? what effects did you have as a result of that?  
 
 

The Aftermath: PTSD and Gut Disorders 
 
 

Nikki: well, 
 
 

 I was, um, a huge state of anxiety post-traumatic stress [00:12:00] disorder, really was what was diagnosed. I'd have a lot of intrusive memories. I couldn't sleep. I. I couldn't actually lie down and close my eyes in bed properly for about six months. Um, I couldn't even leaving the house in the car to take my son to his t Kondo was a huge challenge. I, you know, can I actually do this? yeah, it was awful. I had palpitations a lot of the time. I had actually several arrhythmias as a result of the accident, and I also had this incredible fear and anxiety that was with me the whole time. 
 
 

 Yeah. So I lost confidence in myself and my body 
 
 

Matt: And in your book you mentioned how you, you had a period of feeling better and then it got worse. Right? So, which also shows how, effects might not come on immediately. And, um,  
 
 

Nikki: that's right and some they do say that if you [00:13:00] experience post-traumatic stress within 10 days, that's actually a better thing than when it's, um, delayed. So at first I  
 
 

didn't, as you rightly say, and I, I experienced the getting my lungs better, seeing cardiologist. You know, dive accident people, all that stuff. Um, just trying to survive and get better. but then a few months, that was September, September, October, December, I actually went back to a dive situation with my daughter 'cause she was doing her rescue cause and I didn't dive, but just being. In that, um, space, I dunno whether it was that, but anyway, one night it all just hit me, bang. 
 
 

And I had nightmares and my palpitations, I got up my, [00:14:00] I had diarrhea. I felt sick. The room was spinning. And that was the beginning of the big 
 
 

Matt: Right. And then you just mentioned a few, uh, gastrointestinal disorders right there. and you mentioned, post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, as a, as a result of that, I think a lot of us are familiar with that term, or PTSD. and in your book, you. Talked about post-traumatic gut disorder, which is, uh, obviously not an established term. 
 
 

So can you talk about,why  
 
 

you're using that term and  
 
 

then the connection to this PTSD with your gut.  
 
 

Nikki: Absolutely. So I was diagnosed with PTSD and I had, you know, all that going on, but my gut was right there from that night onwards and it was the thing that went on and on and on, and I still work with it now. Um, and it was kind of ignored by. Anybody I talked to about the accident, and you can understand [00:15:00] why, because PTSD is an official diagnosis that was created by psychologists and psychiatrists. 
 
 

So they're not really concerned with the gut. Um. In my own experience and so many people that come to me in my craniosacral practice and people I know in the world and people I see with concussion, traumatic brain injury, trauma of all sorts, the gut is where an awful lot of that trauma can be held in a myriad of different ways. So for me, I. Decided to have my own term, which was post-traumatic Gut Disorder, and actually I almost wish I'd left disorder off 'cause disorder sounds like it's wrong. Well, yeah, maybe it's not functioning in a way that is comfortable, but it's a natural response. To something that's happened to us. I didn't respond in a [00:16:00] disordered or a, you know, a bad way. 
 
 

I just responded to my experience and I think that's, for me, that's true of PTSD too. So I prefer to knock the D off both, both of their, for myself anyway, 
 
 

Matt: That's a really good point. Yeah. And you know, when we're talking about the fight, flight or freeze response, we're referring to the sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system. Of course. Something I'd like to talk about whenever I look at this, in a Yoga teacher training that I'm teaching anatomy is, you know, when does this happen and, you know, is it better than the other side, which is the rest and digest state? 
 
 

And you know, the conclusion is. We have this fight, flight, or freeze response for a reason. It is not a mistake of our evolution.  
 
 

It is a completely normal response to a threat or even to a perceived threat. And I could tell you my, my dog who I just had to kick outta the room 'cause [00:17:00] she was, she, you might even hear the background. 
 
 

Crying a little bit. Um, when my dog sees a cat, she goes into this fight or flight and I can, if I'm holding her, I can feel it. Her body starts to  
 
 

shake, her muscles tense up, her  
 
 

heart rate increases, um, and. Even if I just say the word cat to her,  
 
 

she can go into this state, which, which also shows that not only do we have this potential and it is a normal response, um, though perhaps, you know, with our dog, it could be conditioned to have a different response, but also even just the idea of something bad happening. 
 
 

In other words, the threat without an actual danger, it can be enough to trigger this response.  
 
 

So how did you. Overcome that, you know? Right. As your book says, it's about overcoming chronic digestive conditions, what was the path for you?  
 
 

Healing and Growth: Overcoming Trauma 
 
 

Nikki: Well, I think there is no one path and it's never simple and we're all individuals because I came to that accident with a history of trauma from my [00:18:00] childhood, which had predisposed me to the PTSD and PTG, 
 
 

Matt: Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: post-Traumatic Gut.  
 
 

And we know now that most people with chronic digestive things especially. ubiquitous terms like irritable bowel syndrome, have a prehistory of childhood trauma. So for me, the path was many, many fold. It involved taking up Yoga. That's when I started to do Yoga to learn how to breathe again. And through that I was able to breathe, to calm my system and to. Get rid of all my, um, antiarrhythmic drugs that the cardiologist had put me on. 
 
 

I came off them and I learnt to breathe and I did Yoga, and that was a great, um, experience for me. Um, it took three years to get to that point. In my first class, I was so traumatized. I every time I had a wide leg pose and tried to [00:19:00] put my hands on the floor, the room would spin. 
 
 

 I'd shake anything about being upside down, you know, it was triggering, but I worked through that just gradually. 
 
 

No pressure on myself. So Yoga was something, I had a lot of craniosacral therapy on my nervous system and the emotional work that goes with that. I had regular acupuncture. I saw a psychotherapist for two years. yeah. I mean, just lots of things. Lots of things. 
 
 

Yeah.  
 
 

Matt: Yeah. and it's interesting how you went from that fear of being up upside down and having that response to now, as I know, being a lover of inversions and whenever you've been in my class, you're always the first one to pop up in a handstand or headstand. I. So definitely your, your is a story of success. 
 
 

Um, and I think a story of hope and I think that's one of the beautiful things about your book. and hopefully something that [00:20:00] others can get from it.  
 
 

Nikki: I think that's something that's really important to me to, to. To as a message from the book, and that's very grounded in anatomy. 
 
 

So, you know, I'm a great  
 
 

Yes  
 
 

The Enteric Nervous System: The Second Brain 
 
 

Nikki: post-Traumatic  
 
 

growth is not just surviving and thriving, but actually growing as an individual and not trying to go back to who you were, but exploring who you are now and being able to go forward on every level in a new and expanded way, but also, um, because we are neuroplastic in the brain. But the really fascinating thing that I've discovered is we are also neuroplastic in the second brain in the gut. So the enteric nervous system, which as you know is our gut, um, nervous system 
 
 

and often called the second brain. Now. Is also neuroplastic. So there is always hope that what we do, what we think, what we [00:21:00] experience, how we breathe, how we move, all of these things, enable us to move forwards in, in a way that will make our lives more comfortable, I guess more enriched, integrating that experience a little bit. 
 
 

Matt: Yeah, there's been a lot of really interesting research on the enteric nervous system, something that we also covered in our book. Um, and something I really like about your book and your approach in general is that. You tend towards the woowoo side towards that, you know, crazy spiritual stuff, but you're also very grounded in anatomy,  
 
 

Physiology. Um, and so could you talk a little bit more about the enteric nervous system? what that is, or at least what that means to you?  
 
 

Nikki: So for me, unless we're fully grounded and embodied in our own body, we cannot aspire to be spiritual in any way. I. So I think the more we're down and in, the more up we can [00:22:00] go, but we can't go up without being down and in. So yeah, the anatomy is super important to me. And the enteric nervous system is a really complex data processing system. 
 
 

It has as many neurons as spinal cord, it has as many glial cells as there are in the brain. Which, as you probably know, the, a lot of the research now is around glial cells and enteric glial cells are super important and it goes from the esophagus. All the way down through the whole of the long tube to the anus. Um, and I think it's harder to get your head around the enteric nervous system perhaps because the brain in the head, you know, we know where it is. 
 
 

It's, it's a big structure in 
 
 

here. Okay. There it is.  
 
 

Matt: mm-Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: cord similar. There it is going down through the vertebrae, but the second brain, the enteric nervous system whilst connected to all of that, goes along this [00:23:00] tube and around all the small and large intestine and through the stomach and, you know, it's, um, it's over. It spread out. Just as the endocrine system in the enteric part of this is. So it's a bit harder to get our heads around that, I think for that reason. And I think also, you know, people tend to think about this tube as just a tube. Like the food 
 
 

goes in one end and poo  
 
 

Matt: Mm-Hmm  
 
 

Nikki: the other end, and that's it  
 
 

Matt: mm-Hmm. 
 
 

Nikki: But if you look at the Woohoo, the Eastern beliefs, they would consider the lower tan and the lower part of the abdomen, the center of emotional and spiritual growth. So part of it for me is seeing how we can bridge that gap. And where I found the answers to that was. Diving deep into the anatomy Physiology and research into how [00:24:00] incredible our enteric system is. 
 
 

The Gut-Brain Connection 
 
 

Matt: Hmm. Absolutely. that's a good point about how it is  
 
 

hard to get our head around 
 
 

what it is, even in dissection, you can't see it as clearly, but we all know that feeling of a gut feeling, that's very much in our dialect, gut  
 
 

feeling or if something, feeling wrong in the gut, that sort of thing. 
 
 

So there's definitely this communication and in fact, you know, the, the nerves going up to the brain being received by the central nervous system. From the vagus nerve are greater in number than those going to this, uh, the enteric nervous system, which is interesting, isn't in itself.  
 
 

Serotonin and Dopamine in the Gut 
 
 

Matt: We also know, you know, in terms of a bit of a science, uh, 90% of the body's serotonin  
 
 

is stored in the gut,  
 
 

right? 
 
 

And that serotonin is associated with happiness in general. Feelings of wellness, um, antidepressants have to do with, affecting the serotonin receptors.  
 
 

Um, we know dopamine is also stored in the gut.  
 
 

Microbiota and Mental Health 
 
 

Matt: I. Altered levels of [00:25:00] gut microbiota Those little bacteria and other things living in our gut, which are actually greater in number there are in our own human cells. 
 
 

Uh, so disturbances to those are known to be correlated with things like attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder, Parkinson's disease, and at the moment. From what, from my reading of the scientific literature, we don't know exactly what is causing what, you know, which one happened first. Was it the A DHD or the  
 
 

gut dysbiosis? Right? so we don't so we don't know  
 
 

what's, what's causing what. But it, it definitely shows the interconnectedness of everything and that's, that's something that I found from learning about the digestive system.  
 
 

Nikki: And of course, you know, it's our cells in the. Manufacture all the serotonin as well as storing them.  
 
 

The Enteric Nervous System 
 
 

Nikki: And the serotonin is the neurotransmitter of the enteric nervous system, [00:26:00] and the enteric nervous system is now seen to be another branch of the autonomic system in its own right. 
 
 

It's not part of the peripheral system 'cause it can actually make its own decisions as well as sending all these messages up. Fergus nerve. And the, so, you know, as far as neurodegenerative disease goes, the Lewy bodies that are associated with some of the Alzheimer's and stuff like that are found in the gut as well as in the brain. And the latest research seems to imply they're in the gut first, 
 
 

 and that it starts in the gut. And before we get any symptoms that we would associate with the brain and the head. Which is interesting. I think also for me, the fascinating thing about the microbiota, the guts, you know, which we, which should be like a, a rainforest in its diversity and of course for many reasons, environment diets, soils stress [00:27:00] challenge is not, it can be a bit of a wasteland now in many people. Um, that I've forgotten exactly what I was gonna say there. 
 
 

So. So, yeah. 
 
 

So Microbiota, I've got it. Is that Its diversity is so important that it is involved in all of the complex conversations going in on in the second brain, every single conversation. So that means a lot to me. So not only do we need to work on the microbiota and how we eat, how we deal with our stress drama challenge, but we have to know that the conversations between the enteric neurons. 
 
 

The enteric glial cells, the enteric endocrine cells, the enteric immune cells, those conversations are all going on [00:28:00] all the time, and they all involve gut bacteria. So we can't only look at one thing. That's my point. 
 
 

You can't just  
 
 

Matt: Mm-Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: the bacteria and ignore your glial cells. Or your inin cells or your neuroendocrine cells in the gut that can speak to neurons and hormones. you you know, and, and the serotonin is, is a huge thing because that triggers all our peristalsis. Without enough serotonin, we are constipated. With the right amount. That's great. We feel well. We have regular bowel movements with too much. We have diarrhea and vomiting, 
 
 

 which is one of the problems with the SSRIs. 
 
 

Too much free floating serotonin. So the whole thing is such a team, team job, and every [00:29:00] part of that team. Needs to be involved and functioning well, that's what I discovered. And when you add to that, that the layers, that all the 10 different layers in the wall of the small and large intestine, which is like a whole universe of its own, um, a lot of those layers can hold.  
 
 

Impact of Trauma on Gut Health 
 
 

Nikki: Fascial tension, strain patterns, whether it's from surgery, investigative procedures, childhood trauma, current trauma, concussion, whatever it might be, and then you can imagine from what I've said, that a couple of layers holding a strain pattern how that is going to affect the gut bacteria. All the cell populations, the default state of the enteric nervous system. 
 
 

It's beyond complex in there. 
 
 

Matt: Hmm. It sounds like you're pointing towards the [00:30:00] interconnectedness of everything in our body, which is the same thing that I came to realize  
 
 

in, in researching all the different systems of the body. That we did for our book also.  
 
 

 I like how it fits in with the Yoga philosophy of the interconnectedness of how we are, you could say individual expressions of divine creation or something. 
 
 

Yoga,` Yoga philosophy tends to focus on all as one and that sort of thing.  
 
 

And we can see that within the studies of anatomy and Physiology and how if one system is broken or. disordered or you know, it has a problem with it. It will affect all of the systems and.  
 
 

Nikki: It's huge, you know, and I think I. What's so interesting, some of the recent research about concussions and traumatic brain injury, it shows that the impact is on the gut within four hours, and you're more likely to die of an infection in your gut if you've had concussions or A TPI by about 50%. You know, we can't have something [00:31:00] impact one brain without the impact on the gut. It just isn't possible. 
 
 

Matt: Hmm. You just said by a TPI. What is  
 
 

Nikki: sorry. Traumatic brain injury. 
 
 

 So  
 
 

somebody who falls on the head or falls off their bike or gets hit on the head 
 
 

 or has a tumor removed or some kind of surgery, you know, the injury could come from, or maybe an infection or disease process or those things can be an insult to the brain.  
 
 

Matt: Before we go into the topic of how you think, we could all better look after our gut.  
 
 

Emotional Memory in Cells 
 
 

Matt: I want to touch on one other point, which is about memory in cells. So your, your book suggests or talks a little bit about the idea of  
 
 

emotional memory in cells 
 
 

 and I, I have to admit, my skeptic alarm tends to go off when I hear something like, you know, emotions are stored in the hips. 
 
 

Or, memories are stored in the cells or that sort [00:32:00] of thing. So I, I tend to be a little bit skeptical, but in your book, you do a really good job of talking about how this might actually be physiologically possible through the cell danger,  
 
 

Nikki: So Danger response is one of the many, um, references. Yeah. So if you look back now, there's a wonderful book called Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pet, 
 
 

who's a, um. Straight down the middle scientific researcher for like 25 years, and she wrote the original book on molecules for emotion. Then we have Bessel VanDerKolk on the body, keeps the Score. 
 
 

So there are a lot of books out there now which show how our life's in our body, and if we think about it, you know, um. We know, um, I mean there's so many things I could mention, but the ACE study, have you seen the ACE study? 
 
 

 [00:33:00] adverse Childhood Experience 
 
 

Study.  
 
 

Matt: Yeah. You mentioned it in your book. Yeah. 
 
 

Nikki: people in the states were 
 
 

followed up and they found a lot of things. 
 
 

But one of the things I picked out from my book was that it had a huge and lifelong impact on the microbiota. 
 
 

So there's a very direct physical impact of that trauma. On the the, and these early difficult emotional experiences are the biggest indicator of, um, things going wrong mentally and physically for your entire So, you know, we cannot separate these things out. 
 
 

And yeah, there's the cell danger response. So it's a completely normal survival response if we feel threatened. Yes, we know what happens in the nervous system, but what happens inside the cell? Interesting. The digestive part of the cell, [00:34:00] um, responding to what's just happened. 
 
 

It changes what happens 
 
 

in the cell and the cell remembers that change, especially if when the initial threat has. Gone. You know, there's another threat soon after if it goes on and on. And some of those threats, we, you know, and it's in the science, the cell danger response is triggered by psychological threats. 
 
 

So a child with parents who were shouting and screaming at each other all the time, their cell danger response is triggered, and that can have an ongoing. Impact on the cells all over the body. We have the intrinsic primary afferent neurons in the small intestine to pick another individual cell. And if we're under a lot of stress, they not just like, oh, I've had a bad day, you know, but 
 
 

maybe we're in an ongoing, stressful [00:35:00] job that's really a bit overwhelming a lot of the 
 
 

time. 
 
 

I had a. Client to, um, a client to experience this directly, then those cells will remember that, um, stress and they will change how they react to things in the small intestine. And what happened was to give an example, this client had a particularly difficult week and her family made a lovely chicken broth soup or something, you know, Friday evening.  
 
 

Matt: Mm-Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: She ate it, you know, great. All the family enjoyed it. She was throwing it up all night  
 
 

Matt: Hmm  
 
 

Nikki: because her gut, her iPads and probably the serotonin layer levels went up and her gut wasn't able to process this or any food, but that, that's based in Physiology. And then there's the slow sustained post-synaptic excitation response in the gut, [00:36:00] which also is so far, um, our only way of explaining how a nervous system can remain triggered from a trauma. So it changes how it works. So when you come onto the body with, um. Um, strain patterns and unhelpful default settings in different parts of our nervous system with a safe space and a pair of hands that are trained to work with the nervous system. What happens in practice for me, my colleagues, and. For decades this has been happening is an emotion or a memory will come up and we never suggest it, but it will come up.  
 
 

Matt: Mm-Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: do not believe in the formula of emotion in the hip, grief in the lungs. I don't go along with formulas. I think it's individual. And in my experience, [00:37:00] when you work with somebody in this way, if it comes up quite naturally, then you get a physical release in the fascia, in the body, in the cell population working better. 
 
 

Um, much better and much more fully than if you just work on a physical level. I dunno if I've answered any of your questions, but  
 
 

Matt: Absolutely. And you know, in craniosacral therapy, you're obviously touching someone's head and I think that can have a profound impact, 
 
 

especially on someone who has perhaps survived abuse or some  
 
 

other traumatic events and. absolutely. and. for me, you know, after my childhood when I had a lot of cranial work and cried Rivers in some of my session, but it transformed my life. I used to have this chronic back pain, Mm-Hmm um, and. And I, I don't now. And that was where it stopped. I was, that's where I happened to be holding on a lot of grief [00:38:00] for what I'd been  
 
 

So it's this beautiful balance again, of this woo woo stuff, you know, and, but actually grounded in, in some solid anatomy and Physiology.  
 
 

Epigenetics and Gut Health 
 
 

Matt: And, and you're also referring to the study of epigenetics, which, uh, scientists have looked into. And this has to do with what we, within our own lives do, will affect the expression of certain genes, certain DNA. 
 
 

So, you know, you, we know lifestyle factors will affect your, likelihood of getting cancer or diabetes or that sort of thing. And you can have genes that make you more likely to have those disorders or less likely and with within your own life, both in terms of lifestyle factors and external events that happen to you. 
 
 

Both. Those can affect the expression of those genes. And then there's also research as you know, that that can transfer through generations. And you mentioned this in your book also and how the children of Holocaust survivors have. differences in the expression of certain [00:39:00] genes, which can make them more prone to anxiety  
 
 

and that sort of thing. 
 
 

So, 
 
 

you know, I, I like how you said it's not as clear cut as, emotions in your hips and grief in your lungs, but yes, stretching your hips might cause an emotional response at the same time, you know, stretching your, I don't know, your shoulders might  
 
 

have an emotional response and we are. Yes, exactly. 
 
 

Just sitting down, slowing down and focusing on your breath, which for most people is the first time they  
 
 

do that in their day  
 
 

and perhaps the first time they do it in their life. If it's their first Yoga class, there's so much. To be said about those benefits and it's, it's not as, clear cut as, I think a lot of Yoga therapy books might, might describe it, that you do this in order to cure that  
 
 

trauma. 
 
 

You do this in order to cure that disease.  
 
 

Nikki: that.  
 
 

Matt: But yeah, I love how you are blending this WOOWOO language, but putting some real solid science behind it. And [00:40:00] there's still a lot that we need to, to learn, you know, in terms of science.  
 
 

But I think you're doing beautiful work by working with these people and providing that safe space for people to have those emotional experiences. 
 
 

And I think we as Yoga teachers can facilitate that by simply allowing for some quiet  
 
 

space  
 
 

for people.  
 
 

Nikki: absolutely. And 
 
 

sometimes I find, you know, lots of people come to me in my clinic now with chronic gus, digestive conditions, as you can And, uh, many of them are there as a result of trauma in the past.  
 
 

Matt: Hmm.  
 
 

Nikki: And sometimes I just put my hands on and I mentally go down the layers, all the different layers of the tube with my hands. And then the, the layer where there's an issue will. I'll feel there's a significance there. There's a stillness. I'll feel them dropped down into a deeper place and that's when often people then will come up with and say, oh, I feel very emotional, or [00:41:00] I have a memory of this, or I can see myself as a five-year-old there. And it just comes naturally for them. And it's just with the knowledge of the anatomy and Physiology in my hands. In my head, it's like their gut knows that. And then with the palpation that I have developed, that allows me to be very specific about where I am in their  
 
 

Matt: Hmm. You've done such a beautiful job today of, describing how our spirituality is. In many ways manifested in our anatomy and Physiology. So thank you for that.  
 
 

Practical Tips for Gut Health 
 
 

Matt: And to, to close, what do you think we could be doing to help our gut in general to improve gut health and that sort of thing beyond just  
 
 

drinking keer or something,  
 
 

though, that might be a good idea. is lovely. Um, yeah, it's, again, it's gonna be multifaceted, I think. I don't think there's ever a simple solution. [00:42:00] Um, I I do think a clean diet matters. And huge diversity in diet, clean ingredients to help your gut bacteria is really important, Diversity. So lots of different fruit, vegetables, seeds, nuts, you know, plenty of water, legumes, if you have meat, have good quality, good quality, oily fit, all of that stuff important. 
 
 

Nikki: But if you don't deal Um, any emotional trauma that may be held in your gut and very often it's difficult to get to because what I find, it's where we dissociate when we get into the free state. So it's a bit harder to reach. But if you can work with that, either with your hands on breathing into it. Without self-judgment, without um, expectation, you can do that work yourself. You can go and see somebody that I've trained in the gut work. But what else can you [00:43:00] do? You can breathe, you can learn to breathe. You can go for a walk In nature, your gut bacteria love being taken for a walk outside where there are trees, they love it. I always imagine my, all my gut bacteria are like little dogs on leads I'm taking for a walk, which I know is not how it is, but in my mind it is. And then things like. Hummings, singing, dancing. Some people it might be gardening. Doing things that nourish you and help you relax will always help your gut because it's about trying to help that gut nervous system get into a more functional default state than it perhaps normally is. And, um, and not being hard on yourself. You know, mine still gets into a less than good functioning state. Sometimes it's not perfect, [00:44:00] but I have the resources to know how I can work with that and deal with it. 
 
 

Matt: And maybe doing some circus arts too. Maybe that's Yeah, I mean, hanging upside down off a trapeze works for me with a crash mat. Don't try that at home. 
 
 

The Role of Yoga and Play 
 
 

Matt: And in all seriousness, I think doing things that are fun, getting involved in play. Without trying to accomplish anything, just for the sake of, I enjoy this thing. And you know, it doesn't have to be like a deeply emotional experience, or it doesn't have to be like a, a quiet, you know, therapy. 
 
 

But actually I think even hanging from a trapeze or something, it can be emotional experience. It can be rewarding, powerful, or even. Balancing on your hands, which is something that I love to teach and the benefits of that. And I see people with so many stories of, oh, I can't balance on my hands because I'm too weak, too fat, too old, whatever. 
 
 

And I guarantee I can show you someone who is weaker [00:45:00] fat or older than  
 
 

you who can balance on their  
 
 

hands in this crow pose. So yeah, there's, there's so much to be said about doing something. Which challenges you doing something which is fun, and then noticing the stories that come up in your head and trying to overcome those  
 
 

fears. 
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, I agree. And I think when we're playing and having fun, um, that actually is having a big impact on how our nervous system is set. Both the enteric nervous system, the rest of the autonomic nervous system. If we spend time, um, having fun and being creative in some way that really helps us to have a healthy nervous system, has a physiological impact. 
 
 

Matt: Yeah. There's a lot of value in that, I  
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, definitely.  
 
 

Matt: Brilliant.  
 
 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts 
 
 

Matt: So I think that that nicely wraps up everything we've been talking about. Is there anything else you feel  
 
 

you'd like to share? I.  
 
 

Nikki: just really to, again, encourage people to know [00:46:00] that all their experience during the day, their breathing, where they are, what they do, how they move, what they eat can have a helpful, impact on, changing their chronic digestive issue into something that is much more manageable and, and to give people a real message of hope. 
 
 

Remember, everything in our gut is impacted by what we think, what we feel, what we do every day, and we can change that no matter what the history is. 
 
 

Matt: Beautiful. And if you happen to be a Yoga teacher listening to this, think about the wonderful gift that you are providing to people by allowing them to connect with their body, giving them that quiet, safe space. And know, even at times, allowing them to have fun with  
 
 

their  
 
 

bodies. 
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, absolutely. It is a real 
 
 

gift.  
 
 

Matt: So we should go about it with joy,  
 
 

not fear. 
 
 

Nikki: Yes. Yeah.  
 
 

Matt: I hear a lot of Yoga teachers [00:47:00] being fearful of injuring people and doing things the wrong way. Just creating that space is, is, so powerful just in itself,  
 
 

Nikki: completely, and I find when I work with people with the gut issues, that the safety in my hands and what I do is even more important because it is a place where things can be quite  
 
 

Matt: Mm. Right.  
 
 

Excellent. Well, that's brilliant. So if people. I want to learn more about you, follow you. Obviously, everyone should pick up the book, overcoming Chronic Digestive Conditions  
 
 

by Nikki  
 
 

Kenwood with, um, published by Up Ledger Institute International, and where else could we find you on the  
 
 

socials and  
 
 

all 
 
 

that? 
 
 

Nikki: I, so it's on Amazon, the book. It is easy to 
 
 

find. Um, you  
 
 

can find me on Instagram at Nikki Circus and um, I have a YouTube channel from Lon to Cosmos. With some gut meditations on it and [00:48:00] actually a circus film, which is all about mental health and psychosis, if that's what you're interested Um, which made, um, in the yeah. And on Facebook, Nikki Kenwood.  
 
 

Matt: and obviously this will be timestamped, but any interesting circus things coming up  
 
 

Nikki: I've, yeah, so I'm really interested in, um, creating something which might bring all of this stuff as a kind of immersive event, and I have a team thinking about that. And I've also applied for a claw fellowship, so I'm waiting to hear about that. To research diversity and  
 
 

Matt: Brilliant. So I'm expecting a whole gastrointestinal  
 
 

tract on the stage and 
 
 

Nikki: Yeah, quite possibly, Matt, quite Well, you heard it here first.  
 
 

Matt: Alright, brilliant. Thank you so much, Nikki. It was [00:49:00] great talking to  
 
 

you,  
 
 

Nikki: Oh, thank you, Matt, for having me on and I've really enjoyed it. I love any opportunity to get this message  
 
 

Matt: Alright. Thank you very much and stay tuned for our next episode. hit subscribe if you haven't already, and I'd be grateful if you could leave us a review on iTunes, Spotify, or any other podcast player that you listen to. Until next time, Get enlightened and help others.