2: Demystifying Anatomy with Andrew McGonigle

In this episode of the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, host Matthew Huy is joined by Dr. Andrew McGonigle, co-author of the Physiology of Yoga. They discuss Dr. McGonigle's transition from a medical career to teaching anatomy in yoga, the importance of understanding anatomy and physiology for yoga teachers, and the process of reevaluating old beliefs and misinformation within the yoga community. Topics such as the misconceptions around osteoarthritis and osteoporosis are covered, emphasizing the need for evidence-based practices in yoga. The episode highlights the importance of continuous learning, collaboration, and scientific inquiry in the field of yoga, underscoring the benefits of understanding the body better through anatomy and physiology education.

00:00 Welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast
00:21 Meet Dr. Andrew McGonigle: Co-Author and Anatomy Expert
01:35 The Origin Story: How Matthew and Andrew Met
02:51 Andrew's Journey from Medicine to Yoga and Anatomy
06:59 The Early Days of Teaching Anatomy and Embracing Challenges
13:02 Exploring Arthritis: Shifting Perspectives and New Understandings
20:55 Diving Deep into Osteoporosis and the Power of Movement
24:38 Fascia: The Buzzword of the Yoga Community
29:17 Debunking Myths Around Fascia and Foam Rolling
29:43 The Pendulum Swing in Fascial Fitness
30:10 Movement and Fascia: A Balanced Perspective
31:03 Yin Yoga and Fascial Release: A Critical Look
32:07 Embracing Silence and Introspection in Yoga Practice
33:35 The Interplay of Science and Yoga Philosophy
36:14 The Power of Knowledge in Overcoming Injury
39:15 Addressing Pain and Fear in Yoga Teaching
43:56 The Importance of Staying Active and Challenging Misinformation
52:44 Collaboration and Continuous Learning in Yoga Teaching
54:16 Upcoming Courses and Content Creation Tips

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Transcript

Saz: 0:04

Welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, where we take a deep dive into the worlds of anatomy, physiology and science to help you feel more confident and inspired as a yoga teacher. Now here's your host, Matthew Huy.

Matthew Huy: 0:22

So hello and welcome to episode two of the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, and I'm joined this week by none other than my co-author of the Physiology of Yoga, Dr. Andrew McGonigle. And to give you a little bit of a background about Andrew, he's the author of course of the Physiology of Yoga, along with myself, and he's also written Supporting Yoga Students with Common Injuries and Conditions. He's also contributed to lots of magazines, including Yoga Journal. He hosts an online anatomy course and runs with me the online Physiology of Yoga 8- Week Course. So welcome, Andrew. It's great to have you here.

Andrew McGonigle: 1:03

Yeah. Thank you Matt. I, I knew I recognized you from somewhere. Thanks for reminding me.

Matthew Huy: 1:08

Yeah, that's

Andrew McGonigle: 1:08

right.

Matthew Huy: 1:10

Yeah,

Andrew McGonigle: 1:11

Yeah, thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Matthew Huy: 1:13

Great. Thank you. And you're joining us from Los Angeles, California, where you live, right?

Andrew McGonigle: 1:18

Yeah, so we've done a, a life swap, haven't we? You're, you're

Matthew Huy: 1:22

originally from

Andrew McGonigle: 1:22

here and I'm originally from the UK and we've swapped, so yeah. No, yeah, from, from LA. Nice weather today. I won't, I won't rub it in for too much, but yeah.

Matthew Huy: 1:32

Yeah, because it's been raining all day here, And just to give you a bit of, of a background of, of how we met. So I was beginning to teach anatomy on yoga teacher training programs, and I really wanted to reach out to other anatomy teachers who were doing the same thing. So I did just that. I reached out to a few anatomy teachers in London just saying, Hey, do you wanna meet up go through talk shop, that sort of thing. And you were the only one who responded

Andrew McGonigle: 2:02

No

Matthew Huy: 2:02

way And, yeah. Yeah. And I remember we were both teaching at Triyoga at the time in London. And so we, we met for lunch. And despite me inviting you, you insisted on paying very kind of you, I still, I think I still owe you for that, don't I

Andrew McGonigle: 2:16

you do. I've made a record of that actually.

Matthew Huy: 2:21

And that was the beginning of our career together and our collaboration. I remember from the very beginning you being very generous, sharing your anatomy manual with me inviting me to an anatomy training and you've always been incredibly open and I've, I've been very grateful for that. So that's, that's our background in, in how we've met. But could you share with us your background, your story and how you got into anatomy and teaching anatomy on yoga teacher training programs?

Andrew McGonigle: 2:51

Yeah. So it starts, you know, quite a couple. It starts a couple of decades ago. So I went to medical school, you know, I have a medical degree and basically I went to a really academic grammar school and. I was a straight A student and it was just the expected thing to do, you know, was to do something, um, really academic. I actually wanted to do musical theater, honestly. Like, that's probably the thing that I really wanted, you know, to do in my heart. But, but anyway, I went to medical school. My big sister was at the same medical school. She was three years ahead of me. So it, it sounds weird, but it was kind of the easy option for me because it was familiar, you know? So, yeah, so medical school was an amazing opportunity. It was definitely a struggle. Uh, it definitely didn't feel like the right choice for me, but I did well and I graduated and I got offered jobs, and then I started to work as a junior doctor, and I didn't even last the full year. It was just, you know, completely not the right path for me. So I walked away from it and everyone thought I was crazy. But, um, you know, it's, it's beautiful to kinda reflect back on it because. Years later, I became a yoga teacher. I was living in Sydney and I was, had a really regular yoga practice and I just had this dec decision one day, okay, this is what the next chapter's gonna look like. And then after working as a yoga teacher and becoming a massage therapist, I decided to teach anatomy. You know, I had, I had personally never thought about it again. It's so obvious that it, it was so, it was so close to me that I couldn't say it. Someone else made the suggestion and they knew about my background and they said, well, have you ever thought about teaching anatomy? And I literally had this like light bulb moment and that changed the course of my life, you know, that conversation. so it's been amazing. And then I basically reached out to people in my community who I knew ran yoga teacher trainings. And I said to them, look, if you were looking for someone to teach anatomy, like where would you go looking for that? And someone said, well, I am looking and would you, will you do it for me? So I had then two months to create a 20 hour course and it kind of, you know, was kind of a baptism of fire. So, yeah. Amazing. And then, you know, that that was, I think I kinda lost track of time, but I would say that was 13, 13 years ago, you know?

Matthew Huy: 5:21

Yeah, that's interesting that you never thought of that idea yourself. Um, I I have a degree in dance, my bachelor's while you went off to medical school, I went and got a degree in dance and I remember as part of the lighting design course. Um, I remember the fact that when you are in the middle of a light, it's really hard to tell what color the light is. You don't know that you're into light unless you look down at the floor or something like that. Whereas to everyone else, it's completely obvious that you are very bright red in a very bright red light. So I think the, the same can be said of of our, our own talents and our own skills, because they're so inherent to us. We might not think that it is a skill.'cause it just seems easy to us. So it's great that that person pointed out that out to you. And the other thing that comes to mind is, uh, or the other thing that I think of from your story is the fact that you reached out. You thought, okay, maybe I do have this gift. And you just started emailing people. And I think that's such an important step for any yoga teacher or anyone in life to, to, to do, just to reach out and say, Hey, can I do this? Are you interested in this? Or, or do you know how I get started?

Andrew McGonigle: 6:27

yeah. I think when you, when an idea re really resonates with you, I would just say go with the momentum and act on it straight away. Don't sit on it, just act on it. Do something. Reach out or be outta your comfort zone. And, and it was, it was, yeah, it was uncomfortable, but ultimately. It was this amazing decision. And if I had paused and thought, oh, I'll, I'll wait a little while, I maybe, maybe I wouldn't be sat here today teaching anatomy, you know? So I think when something really resonates, just like go with it, you know, do something, act on it.

Matthew Huy: 7:00

and how were those early days of teaching anatomy? How did you find that you distilled your knowledge from medical school, which is quite different to the knowledge you need for teacher training. So how did you bring that knowledge into teacher training? How was it for you and what did you learn along the way?

Andrew McGonigle: 7:17

Yeah, that's a good question. The big thing for me was looking at anatomy from a completely different perspective. I'd obviously been taught it in great detail, but from a lens of pathology, you know, through illness, really, you know? And then I was like, how do I look at this through a lens of wellbeing, but also movement. Like you don't learn anatomy. through movement at medical school, you'd learn the muscles, but you don't really understand particularly what the muscles do. You know, it's kind of quite unusual. And also you're looking at everything through the medical model, you know, which is like, everything's separate, you know? So it was, it was looking at everything as, as a whole. And I went and actually did dissection looking at fascia, um, which was amazing. So it was really just starting to look at the body in a completely different way. I'd, you know, I'd done dissection work as a medical student, but that was really, really powerful. And then it was also just really looking at how to apply it. So I was like, if I can't make this, if I can't relate this information to the yoga practice, then I don't really want to touch on it. So it was really coming up with creative ways to, you know, pun intended to bring it up, bring the anatomy alive, and, um, because when I had been taught anatomy in a yoga context before it was never related to the actual practice, to the poses and things like that. So that's from the very start, that was one of my intentions to really bring it together. I remember, I remember vividly the first time I taught anatomy, it was just a small group of people. I think it was maybe five students, but it was, it was amazing and it was challenging, but I, I knew, I was like, this is my calling. Like, I feel at home here even though it was a somewhat daunting experience and there's been a ton of growth and, you know, along the way. But it, I knew from the start, oh yeah, this is, this feels right.

Matthew Huy: 10:27

Yeah, it, you've heard of imposter syndrome, and I think a lot of us face that as you're good teachers or in anything we do. But a good spin on that is if you feel like you're, you are an imposter, that means you're pushing yourself to something that you're not comfortable with, and that is where you grow. If we just constantly stay in this area that feels comfortable for ourselves, then we're not gonna be growing. Right.

Andrew McGonigle: 10:51

Yeah. And I had been doing that for years, basically ever since I left medicine. Yeah. I had, I had good jobs and I had, I had done well, but I, I was always in my comfort zone and I, I made myself small because I just had such a hard time with that, even though even it was a short window, just such a hard time working as a doctor and then leaving that and adjusting to that. So I had made myself really small for a long time, and then this new passion ignited something and it allowed me to like start to challenge myself and be outta my comfort zone again. So it was also adjusting to that after really, like a long, many years of just being comfortable. So, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a, it was pretty incredible. I felt very like, invigorated by it. Um. and then it, and then look if you want, if you want to be good at something, you have gotta keep doing it. So then it was just about getting as many opportunities as I could. And I just kept teaching and teaching and I remember running workshops on my own and having two people that signed up for like a, a five session thing. So it was, it was four hours times five and it was two people. And I made no money. I lost money on it, but I was like, I have to use this as an opportunity to grow. And it was amazing to have this very intimate experience with two people and to again, really be outta my comfort zone. And it was ultimately, it was a great thing. It was painful at the time, but it was a great thing. It's similar to teaching yoga. Like if you, sometimes people don't show up to class, but if one person shows up, you've got an opportunity to really, I. Give them a great experience. Really connect and bond with that person, you know? So it's a journey. It's a journey.

Matthew Huy: 12:41

Yeah. Well that's really good to hear about you having the just two people in a workshop.'cause if someone looked at you now, they would think, oh, he's got his 24,652. Not that I know the exact number of Instagram followers, you know, and he's got two books out. He's been published in lots of magazines. And, if someone just meets you now, it would appear that you're an overnight success. But like anyone who's successful, you've gone through those, those difficult times that people don't see of having two people in the room

Andrew McGonigle: 13:11

yeah.

Matthew Huy: 13:12

and losing money.

Andrew McGonigle: 13:13

Losing money and having massive self-doubt about it. And it's a journey. It's taken me 13 years. To get here and I'm still growing and still, and it's still in some ways struggling, you know, in, in my own way. Um, it's, you know, I think if, if there wasn't some sort of struggle and growth, I'd probably be bored and wanna do something else, you know? So, um, yeah, it's been a journey and it's taken time and commitment and patience and a lot of reflection to get here, you know?

Matthew Huy: 13:44

Mm-Hmm. So, not to make you too vulnerable, but you just said you're still even struggling and, and facing things now. So what, what is the struggle now?'cause from the outside it seems like you're an expert. What, what could you possibly be struggling with?

Andrew McGonigle: 14:00

Um, I would say to keep things like fresh for myself, you know, because I still want to grow and learn. So One thing I've been doing over the last six months has been doing like a deep, deep dive into like certain topics like arthritis or osteoporosis or low back pain and just really challenging my preexisting beliefs'cause I still have them, you know, I still need to be challenged on that. And I think just always recognizing that there's more to learn and that, you know, I think we're all aware that thing, things can get repeated so often that you just end up believing that they're fact. And even though I really look at things through a critical lens, I still have my own biases and my own things to shift out of the way. So it's been really, yeah, it's, it's really trying to find the, the blind spots and they're always there. They're always gonna be there in some way, but really like shining a light on those and doing the work there. I think that's, um. Yeah, that's, that's what I've been focusing on the last maybe six months, which has been really, really cool in a way.

Matthew Huy: 15:15

yeah. And it's, it's beautiful to be able to acknowledge that, that you do have the bi, those biases. Because the reality is we all do you know, and science, the idea of science is to try to eliminate bias as much as possible. And both you and I are huge fans of science. You know, our book is Science-based. We have lots of references. Um, you're always reading lots of evidence and research papers, uh, but it's really important for everyone to know that no one is unbiased. We all have some framework from which we view the world, and it's quite a beautiful thing to try to see the world more clearly for what it is. And with a little bit less bias, which means recognizing your biases, confronting those, and I I don't know what ancient yoga scripture that fits in with, but

Andrew McGonigle: 16:03

Yeah,

Matthew Huy: 16:03

I, I know it does. I think that vairagya or something of, of coloring the, the lens and that we see the world through and trying to clear the lens through which we see.

Andrew McGonigle: 16:12

yeah, but also it's like, it's, you know, anatomy, physiology, it's, there's, it's such a vast topic and you can't be fully on top of everything all the time. So I, I did this workshop on arthritis and if I'm gonna be really honest, if you'd asked me two years ago, I would've still described osteoarthritis as mechanical wear and tear. And that's now an old school opinion. That's totally changing. And yeah, there's often a mechanical part of the puzzle, but really. It's now more people are looking at more as about systemic inflammation, you know? So it's really, really fascinating and, and that's what I, that's one of the reasons I love this topic is because there's always something new to learn. And, um, you just have to like, you know, have that as your intention, you know, to keep learning and keep challenging yourself.

Matthew Huy: 17:08

So as a listener, I can imagine someone just having like a, a huge moment there saying, wait, you're saying arthritis? Or at least osteoarthritis is not a wear and tear disease, but that's, that's all I've heard of, you know, uh, my grandma, she has arthritis and she talks about it like that. So, and then you mentioned about systemic inflammation. Can you, can you go into that a little bit further? What does that mean? Um, and so what, what is, what are the latest findings about this?

Andrew McGonigle: 17:33

Yeah. So, um, it's hard to kind of put it in a succinct way, but yeah, we used to really think that, you know, um, we would wear out our joints with activity. Like my grandfather had really bad osteoarthritis in both knees, and he blamed it to him being a carpenter. And he and it, and it, and it all, it felt like a chronic thing, like it was only going to get worse. And, um, he, he sadly bought into that model and it did get worse and it really massively affected his quality of life. What we realize now is that, the typical say x-ray findings that would be used to diagnose or would be used as part of a diagnosis for osteoarthritis, that they're really normal age-related changes. And you can have those and have no joint pain or dysfunction. And yes, obviously you can have them and have joint pain and dysfunction, but it's, it's a much bigger picture than that. And pain is complicated. So, you know, people think, oh, you get pain from bones rubbing together. Well actually, the bone itself doesn't have nerve endings and the cartilage doesn't have nerve endings. You know, the, the pain comes from the, the wider areas of the joint being inflamed, and yeah, this in inflammation really is happening throughout your body, but it's happening to show up in certain joints of your body. That's really where the evidence has kind of taken us. So really we need to, um, not allow fear to stop us moving. We actually need to be more active if we have arthritis and actually the activity, the physical activity is gonna be the thing that can over time, decrease the inflammation and actually improve our experience. And your pain can decrease. Even if your x-ray changes are worsening, you can, your pain can improve over time. You know, so it's, it's just, yeah, it's a huge help. I could go, I could talk about it for age, you know, I do a two hour like workshop on it. So, but yeah, so it just, you know, it's just one of these topics. It's just been a fascinating for me, and I wish that I had that information at the time to share with my grandfather. Like, if he had known this, it would've, it could've changed his quality of life. And that's why I feel so honored to be in a place, be I feel privileged to have the time to really do a deep dive into these topics and then share them with people who can, you know, share them with yoga teachers who can then share, share the information with their students. It's beautiful. It's to be part of this kind of ripple effect, you know?

Matthew Huy: 20:12

Absolutely. And I like how you describe that and how information can be empowering, uh, knowledge of physiology and how our body actually works can, can dramatically change how we use it. How we appreciate it, how much fear we carry with it. And I, I have a similar experience for my, my own mother, bless her. She, uh, you know, she has, she says bad knees and she'll, she blames on I think, playing hockey when she was, you know, when she was a teenager. Um, and just like you have looked into the research on osteoarthritis and of course how it's, it's more connected to metabolic syndrome. So if you have a heightened cholesterol levels, heightened triglycerides, um, decreased insulin sensitivity, all those major things, that precede a lot of chronic conditions including diabetes, stroke, cardiovascular disease, those affect quite strongly arthritis. And the research is also fascinating where if you look at an X-ray, someone can have, let's say bad looking cartilage and yet not have pain. And then in their other hip or knee where it doesn't look so bad, they will have pain and arthritis. Um, in our book we also talk about how people have phantom limb pain. And, and I, I think that really paints a picture of, of how complex pain can be and, and how people can feel arthritis in a knee that doesn't exist and yet that pain can get better when they take a non-steroid, anti-inflammatory drug. Like what? Like what's going on? How is, how can pain decrease in the limb that's not there,

Andrew McGonigle: 21:51

I know.

Matthew Huy: 21:51

by taking a drug. It's, it's, it is pretty nuts. Yeah. so you mentioned, you, you, you did that for osteoarthritis and that's a great, uh, description of you did it really succinctly, actually of, of what you've learned in that. Um, and then you, you also did one in osteoporosis. Can you just give us the

Andrew McGonigle: 22:09

Yeah,

Matthew Huy: 22:09

minute summary of that?

Andrew McGonigle: 22:10

it's another one that's really close to my heart because my mum has just been diagnosed with osteoporosis in her spine. Um, she has, um, late onset celiac disease, which is in my family. So it's a, basically a very severe gluten allergy. She hasn't been absorbing minerals and vitamins for a long time properly. And, um, yeah, so it, it, it coincided with me, um, already wanting to do a deep dive into this. And then I went home for a trip and mum told me she had been diagnosed. I was like, oh, wow. So it's been really beautiful because I've also been able to educate her on this. And, um, yeah. So basically I think the, the big thing that I've, that I've realized about, um, osteoporosis is that it can be, I. Reversed in some respect, um, using progressive high impact and resistance training. Now it does need to be done under the guidance of someone like a physical therapist, you know, so don't just do this at home. Get, get proper, um, advice from pe from people, um, who know what they're talking about. But, um, there's this big belief in the yoga world that yoga alone can reverse, you know, bone loss of bone mineral density, and yoga's wonderful. It, it helps with body awareness, with balance, you know, we're reducing fall risk and all these wonderful things that's a bigger kind of, um, you know, in the bigger context of osteoporosis. But yoga is not progressive enough to have a really significant impact on our bone density. So I would just, I just hate for people out there to think well. If they have osteopenia or osteoporosis, that having a regular yoga practice is enough to kind of counteract that. And it's, and it's really not, you know, yoga is, is a wonderful part of the puzzle, but really you need to be doing like progress. You need to be progressively loading your body. Um, so that was the, that was the big thing because again, like misinformation about yoga is just shared so widely. Uh, I saw Yoga International, which I think is a fairly reputable magazine. You know, they've got some great authors and a lot of like evidence-based articles in there. They've been sharing widely on their social media about, um, yoga, reversing osteoporosis. And I'm just like, what are you doing? Like, no. Um, so again, I, I, you know, I feel like I'm really grateful for the position I'm in where I can try my best to share, you know, um, more like kind of logical evidence-based information with people.

Matthew Huy: 24:53

Yeah. Absolutely. And so that's a workshop that you've run in the past and you'll Potentially, hopefully run again in the future for any yoga

Andrew McGonigle: 25:00

Y Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been really popular. I'm definitely gonna be running it, um, maybe twice next year. So, uh, I've got like a schedule that I'm creating. Yeah. And then, you know, and then I wanna just, you know, over time, I think I, I really believe in like, not trying to force, um, inspiration. So it's like I, I just, like, I trust that I will be inspired. So, like, honestly, I, I knew that I wanted to teach more online workshops, but I didn't know what topics and then the topics just came to me. I kind of, you know what I mean? So I kind of, um, released that. And then, so I'm excited for like, other ideas to come up and, um, for, you know, to do a deep dive into other topics in the future. And I'm just gonna let those come to me.

Matthew Huy: 25:45

yeah. Yeah. Well, earlier when you're talking about your medical background and dissection, you, you did use the F word.

Andrew McGonigle: 25:53

Ah,

Matthew Huy: 25:54

is fascia, of course. Uh, so you, and you, you, you mentioned how a dissection lab, where you were looking specifically at fascia, uh, changed how you saw the body. So it, you know, it's such a buzzword in the yoga community and the whole movement community in general. So what are your thoughts on fascia? Why did learning about it through this lab change how you viewed the body? And finally, do we take it too far? Is, is there anything that can, we can actually learn from the fascia?

Andrew McGonigle: 26:30

Yeah. Well, I think, um, I think this is, this, this kind of quote, and I'm gonna paraphrase, comes from her friend Jenni Rawlings, who we both love and admire. We've got to know her more over the last couple years. Um, she's like, you know, fascia is no more Interesting than any other tissue in the body. So I think the thing why it's excited people so much is it's, it's, it has been a part of the body that's really been neglected by medical science. And over the last dec few decades, people have really know it's, it's, it's just as important so that we're trying to catch up with the research. Um, so I think that that's interesting when we, when we start to suddenly learn about a part of the body that was neglected. That is interesting. I think for me, why it was so fa fascinating. Fascinating is, um, it's one of my favorite dad

Matthew Huy: 27:20

you are the first. You're the first one to make that joke ever. I swear I've never used that joke before in any of my teacher trainings.

Andrew McGonigle: 27:27

It's like a rite of passage with anatomy teaching. But, um, when I, when I was doing dissection work as a medical student, we never, I never heard the word fascia. It wasn't a term we used, we didn't really look at connective tissue. Superficial fascia was taken off and put in a bucket, and no one really asked to, what's that in the bucket, you know? So, so for me it was just, I was just learning something brand new, and that was exciting, but for me it was, it's, you know, connective tissue. So it was really seeing how everything is connected. Like in, in the medical world, we use a scalpel to cut things away, and we reveal the gluteus maximus, but really the gluteus maximus is just interwoven with the rest of the body, you know, and the nervous system doesn't even know what we're talking about when we say gluteus maximus, you know, because you can't, you can't isolate a muscle. You can't, you can't. Engage just one muscle in the body. The whole, the whole body engages, you know? So that, that for me was the clincher, like seeing it and being able to touch that and just, you know, I learned more in that couple of days doing dissection work on fascia than I probably would've reading books on it, you know? But it was just that visual representation of just everything seamless. We looked at the, um, iliotibial band and how it's just all interwoven. It just happens to be thicker, the fascia's thicker in that region, basically to help stop us falling to the side. Constantly know that tension there is, we're we're tensile structures. So it made me realize, well actually tension in the body. It's not a bad thing. It's, it's an important thing. We wouldn't be able to stay upright without this tension. People are constantly doing this foam rolling to release tension there. If we did fully release the tension again, we wouldn't be able to stand upright. We would constantly be, our hips would constantly be dropping side to side. So yeah, just, you know, um, just. It was very like illuminating. It was pretty amazing.

Matthew Huy: 29:24

Yeah. And then, and then the last question in that, you know, have we taken it too far in terms of fascia fitness or you know, is there something that, should we be focusing on our fascia, should we do be doing more things for our fascia?

Andrew McGonigle: 29:39

I,

Matthew Huy: 29:40

do you think I.

Andrew McGonigle: 29:41

I, I think of it in terms of like getting into all the little nooks and crannies, you know, so like when I'm doing my movement practice, it's really like getting into my joints and really trying to access all the parts of my body that maybe I typically wouldn't access, you know? So, um, thinking about like stagnation in that sense. But yeah, I think, look, I. It's all about marketing, isn't it? You know, in marketing it is all about you create a problem and then you provide a solution and people pay for it, and all this like myofascial release. And if you do this, then you're gonna feel better. And it, and I think in that sense, it's gone a little bit too far.'cause mo most of the, these myofascial release practices just aren't evidence-based. Can people do them and feel better? Yeah. Uh, and if, and if that's the case, if you're listening at home, don't let me stop you doing it. But if you're, you're losing sleep at night thinking, oh, I haven't made time to do my foam rolling, don't worry. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna be fine. You're not gonna, you're not gonna spontaneously combust because you haven't done your foam rolling for a few weeks, you know? So. Yeah.

Matthew Huy: 30:51

yeah. I, I, I loved learning about fascia when I first heard about it, you know, and I really dove deep into learning about it. And I, you know, I bought all the books, Anatomy Trains and everything, and, and read about it. And as you said, it's, it's something that we've disregarded in the past and we're, we're looking at it now. And, and it is really interesting in that regard. I do think pendulum has swung a bit too far, and we're now, you can go on like fascial fitness courses and that sort of thing. And for me, what I think is when you move, your body does what it needs to do. You know, no one goes on Krebs cycle fitness courses, do they? Krebs cycle is the process of converting glucose to ATPs or cells can use it, and it's just going on in the background all the time. It's doing what it needs to do so that you can function, so that you can think, so that you can move your body. And movement is really good for fascia, but I don't think personally we need to focus on it. Basically just carrying on with your yoga practice, moving your body, staying very active, going for walks, jogs, lifting weights, uh, you know, rolling around on the floor with your kids. All of those things are gonna be really good for your fascia. So, yeah.

Andrew McGonigle: 32:12

And I think like with Yin yoga, which I enjoy, I don't practice a lot of it, but I think it's a really nice practice. I think a lot of people want to say with certainty, oh, these poses are released in your fascia. And really we just don't have enough information to say that, and it's more nuanced than that, you know? So I just think just be mindful of the language you use and also you don't have to qualify everything. Like, you know, yen yoga as this practice is wonderful. Like you, it doesn't always have to be sold as, oh, it's this kind of fascial release practice. You know? So that, that for me, you know. You can argue, you can argue about it, and you can pull out these papers that say it hold a stretch for this amount of time. It does this, but we just don't know enough yet, you know? And, um, maybe in the future we'll know more, maybe we won't. But I just, I just avoid saying things with like absolute certainty, you know, when it comes to the benefits of doing certain things, I think it's hard to kind of qualify that, but yeah.

Matthew Huy: 33:13

And if not. Going on about the benefits, then you're allowing for a bit of silence, which I think is such a valuable thing in a yoga practice, whether it's yin or, or just the slower aspect of a vinyasa. Just, just allowing that, that, that practitioner to marinate in the pigeon pose and just be there, you know, without any distractions. Hopefully they've left their phone and and left their smartwatch in the locker, and they can just really focus on it. A bit of peace and silence. And as yoga teachers, I think it's really important to create the space for that silence too, and that that introspection.

Andrew McGonigle: 33:53

Yeah. And that comes with time and practice, doesn't it? Because at, at the start of the teaching journey, you wanna share all this new information that you have. You know, you wanna share your, like 12 cues about downward dog. And then you realize, well, actually people are only gonna hear one So it's like, you know, you don't have to share everything in every moment. And actually, when I teach anatomy now, I like to just leave room for silence. I just sit there for an hour and don't speak. And then people wanna refund I'm, I'm joking by the way, I don't sit in silence when I'm teaching anatomy, but you know

Matthew Huy: 34:26

there is a line to draw Um, so I think for a yoga teacher who is hearing some of this stuff, some of it could be confronting, especially if they've been saying, you know, this pose releases the fascia and, and does that sort of thing, you know? And so what, what, what do you say to someone who, who finds that what we're saying is confronting and science is going against what ancient yogic teachings say. Do, do you think that the do the two can compliment each other's science and, and yogic philosophy?

Andrew McGonigle: 35:06

I think so, because also for me, the more I learn about the body, the more awe I have. You know, I'm just, you know, more fascinated. I feel more connected to my body a way. And also I think when you're saying things, it's also fine to say, this is what the yoga scriptures say, you know, rather than just saying something with absolute certainties. If it's like fully like factual, you know, you can also, if you want to, you can say, well, Traditionally, this is what has been said. That's, that's okay. You know? So I think there's also ways of sharing stuff that can help people discriminate between something that's traditional, that might not be fact fully factual. You know what I mean? So I think, I think there's also a way of expressing it. But no, I think, I think, um, learning about the body through this lens of anatomy and physiology, I think, I think in a way it can be quite a spiritual experience because this is, we're walking in these bodies, we're in these bodies every day of this life. And, you know, just connecting with our bodies in a deeper sense and having a more, a better understanding is, is a really beautiful thing. And it's never taken away anything from my practice. It's only ever added to it. You know? What do,

Matthew Huy: 36:28

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, yeah, I totally agree. And I, I feel the same. Yeah. It, I, I was watching last night a documentary about astrophysics, and they, you know, there's this sense of awe by these astronomers about how huge the, the universe is and, and how incredible it is, and. I, I get the same sense of awe when I think about the body, which I do a lot, even when I'm brushing my teeth and getting ready for bed. I'm thinking about physiology, some study that I've read recently and it is completely awe-inspiring. And as Einstein said, I think it was something along the lines of, to paraphrase, the more I learn the more I realize, the less I know.

Andrew McGonigle: 37:13

Yeah.

Matthew Huy: 37:14

Uh, and knowing about the body is, is, is an infinite, an infinite thing. And, and yet what little things we do learn about it can be really empowering. So I know that if, if I've been lifting weights the day before and then my back is bothering me, I'm, I'm, I know it's okay. I know I will get better. Whereas before I knew about anatomy physiology, I was thinking I, I slipped a disc the first time I was using kettlebells.'cause my lower back was really spasming. I was in a lot of pain. But then I. I learned about slipped discs, herniated discs. And um, and yeah, that information has really empowered me and made me feel much more confident in my body. And, and I know that this, aching pain is gonna go away. And a fascinating thing about injury is that the strongest predictor, the strongest correlate of how well someone overcomes an injury is their expectation. You know, and there, there's quite a bit of research on this. So basically, if you expect yourself to get better, you are much more likely to get better, right?

Andrew McGonigle: 38:20

And, and fear of injury itself is a risk factor for injuring yourself for, for experiencing back pain, for example, you know, the fear. So yeah, similar. I had this really, I was on the sofa the other day and I had quite intense back pain for a moment like this, like very sharp thing. I don't, I don't know. I have no idea, you know, and I'll probably never know where it came from or what, what was going on. It's so complicated. But I think in the past when I hadn't done this deep dive into pain science, I might've thought, oh, there's something mechanically wrong. Like, I've put my back out, whatever the hell that means. Um, but because I've learned this, I was able to be like, oh, okay. And it's almost like, what, what, um, what do I need to hear? You know, like, okay, I'm, I've just experienced back pain. Like, am I stressed? Am I sleeping enough? Am I having financial worries? Um, am I not moving my spine enough? Am I moving it too much you know, because I'm trying to lift it more weights at, um, and the gym is out age am I, did I overdo it or not? You know, but it's like, it just, it's basically, it helps me to, um, reflect on the choices I'm making rather than go down this rabbit hole of, oh, I've, I've, I've just herniated a disc sat here and it's a permanent thing and this is never gonna get better, you know? So it's, it's, I'm so grateful that I personally have all that information at my disposal. And again, it's why I love, you know, sharing it with other people.

Matthew Huy: 39:58

absolutely. What you're describing is of course, what scientists refer to as rumination and then that potential leading to kinesiophobia or fear of movement. And we know that rumination does correlate with poor outcomes from an injury so Yeah, absolutely. The that, that power of positive thinking. You know, this is not to say you can cure yourself of cancer just by thinking it through. Right. And. Along that line, how do we know where to draw the line? How do we know, in your opinion, when to say, okay, this is a bit of back pain. I'm gonna be okay, versus this is be a bit more serious and maybe I should get it checked out.

Andrew McGonigle: 40:37

Yeah. Like if it's, um, if it's very like sudden onset and also it doesn't, it doesn't pass, you know, if it, if it's there for some time and or if you've got other symptoms along with that, you know, if you have, if you have weight loss on, you know, unexplained weight loss or if you, if it's affecting how your muscles are working or if you're getting pins and needles and stuff like that. Yeah, you, there's things, there's other things where you think, okay, I might wanna get this checked out. But having some pain at certain points over life is just part of the human experience. And it's often how we manage that and how we, how we look at it, that affects the ongoing experience that we're gonna have. You know, so it's about, it's often about the, the minds, the mindset has a huge, you know, part two playing that,

Matthew Huy: 41:34

And as a yoga teacher, how, how do I know when to tell my client like, it is gonna be okay? Just, you know, keep moving. Try to stay active through that back pain versus telling them when to get it checked out?

Andrew McGonigle: 41:47

Um, yeah. You know, similar thing. Um, and like, say for example, if you have, if you have a student who has osteoarthritis and they're coming to class, a good chance that they will experience some degree of joint sensation, joint pain, during or after the class. And that can be just part of the normal experience. So It doesn't, it doesn't mean that it's, it's easy on how to guide people with that, but I think it's, it's eliminating the fear that's also really important. Does that make sense? So it's like, because when you don't have that information, it's so easy to, to go straight to fear and think, oh, it must, I must be doing something wrong. I must be worsening my arthritis, or I must be worsening my herniated disc. And actually we realized through a lot of evidence that typically that's not the case. That just because you're experiencing pain in the moment does not mean that there is something physically going wrong with the tissues. You know, there's a lot, lot of evidence to, to suggest that that's not the case. So it's, I think it's, it's just co coming back to that more empowering state. So it doesn't mean that things can't go wrong with the tissues, but the chances are that. That things are okay. And, and just, just recognizing that pain is so much more than that. It's such, it's a, it's always looking at the big picture. So I think that for me is the, is the, you know, the number one thing. It's like, I think if we want to help ourselves or help others with pain, it's changing our mindset around it. And then as teachers, the language you use and I'm actually quo you from the book.'cause that's a paragraph you wrote that I really loved

Matthew Huy: 43:34

Yeah, of course. So when I did my master's in exercise science, my dissertation was all about fear-based language. So, you know, it's a, a topic of passion of mine and, and how fear-based language can, uh, have the opposite outcome that we want it to, you know, by telling someone to, uh, be careful with their shoulder or they might injure their shoulder in Chaturanga that can make them Have this sense that their shoulder is weak and vulnerable to injury. And then this can lead a person down a rabbit hole of, uh, kinesia phobia. Again, fear of movement, rumination, and, um, and then a really strong factor in whether acute pain becomes chronic pain. And so usually the marker is around, you know, six weeks, less than six weeks is acute pain, and then more than three months is considered chronic pain. Or, or, or more than six months depend in the definition. And in between those is subacute. But a predictive between those two is, uh, whether someone engages or stops engaging in meaningful activities. So if you think to yourself, oh, my back is bothering me, so I better not go to that Rowing competition, even though I love rowing or I better not pick up my grandkids off the floor, I better not garden. And when we stop engaging those meaningful activities that can, that can be a factor in determining whether this pain goes away just on its own or it fosters into something more serious.

Andrew McGonigle: 45:05

well, with my grandfather, um, he started walking like he would, he was a big bird watcher, so he stopped going out as much. He stopped driving as much and he stopped going to his allotment as much. And these are the three things that he really loved, and it just affected his quality of life so much. And another thing that keeps coming to mind is I spent time with a, a neighbor recently. Um, I believe she's in her Nineties if I'm doing the math right. And I went and sat with her for an hour and she was just telling me that she used to be super, super active. This I, you know, this, she just volunteered this, this wasn't even, I wasn't, um, asking questions specifically about this sort of thing. And she said she used to be super active. She used to be a big runner. And then she had a preventative medicine doctor who said to her, oh, you, it is time for you to stop running because you're gonna wear out your knees. And she said that as soon as she stopped running, she noticed herself slowly go down a slippery slope into ill health You know, so that, and that this, this is, again, I wasn't tr um, coaxing anything from her. We weren't even, I wasn't even sharing, I wasn't even talking about anatomy or anything. And she, she was like, just shared with me, volunteered that what, as soon as she started to become less active, um, she noticed all these problems, Pierre. And just how sad that that, that, that doctors. Suggestion, just really put her on a different path. And hopefully over time, not gonna happen any longer. It's gonna take some time. You know, it takes time for, for information to really feed through into different medical communities. But, you know, you, we want, we need to be more and more active as we age. It's not about slowing down. you know, so I wanna be super active for my whole life, you know,

Matthew Huy: 46:55

Mm-Hmm.

Andrew McGonigle: 46:56

and I wanna be challenging myself and doing new activities and all, you know, so, yeah. That was, that

Matthew Huy: 47:02

You said it can take, sorry. You said it can take a while for information to filter through and that number is estimated around 17 years. Some studies have looked at, from the time that we gather information to, then we finally have a systematic review that says actually running does not make your knee cartilage worse. It can then take 17 years for that information to then be taught on, uh, university curricula, and then for those doctors and medical professionals then to start sharing that information. and so that is why it takes a long time for you know, new information to be shared. And that's why old ideas, die hard,

Andrew McGonigle: 47:49

Yeah.

Matthew Huy: 47:50

they take a long time to die, especially fear-based ones. And you know, it is sad that your neighbor, you know, stopped moving and staying active. And it, it's not to say that the running didn't bother her knees, maybe, maybe the running did bother her knees, but maybe she could have found another way of, of moving. Because the reality is we all need to be moving, we all need to be exercising. You know, we have the weekly guidelines by the World Health Organization, which, um, I shared in the first episode of Enlightened Anatomy and,pretty much all of us with only a very few exceptions, need to be getting, you know, 150 minutes of aerobic moderate intensity activity, plus two days of strength training. And that's at the minimum to afford all the benefits that exercise and physical activity afford, including, you know, reducing risk of chronic diseases, um, reducing muscle mass loss or sarcopenia, osteoporosis, as you talked about. Yeah. So hopefully, you know, I think we are doing our bit to share more information and to to, to shorten that amount of time from the moment when a systematic review comes out and we learn new information to sharing that information with other people. And that's the whole essence of our book. Wouldn't you say?

Andrew McGonigle: 49:13

Yeah, for sure. And it's also just good to recognize that like, doctors are human, just like yoga teachers are. And you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult to always keep on top of everything. And I, I often have people that will study with me in anatomy and they'll be like, oh, just feel like my teacher training was rubbish. They were teaching us outdated information. I was like, yeah, but that, that's what happens. Like, it's, it's, it's very difficult to constantly stay on top of all the new ideas, you know? So I think really you just need to see like a teacher training as like a foundation. And then really the teaching only begins after that. You know, you need to then continue to study and gravitate towards the people that you resonate with and keep challenging yourself, you know? Um. But yeah, slight tangent. So you were ask, so you were asking about our book then the Physiology of Yoga. that what you asked me about

Matthew Huy: 50:08

So you think it's a good book, huh?

Andrew McGonigle: 50:10

It's all right.

Matthew Huy: 50:11

what I would say. It's so right. it's, worth a read.

Andrew McGonigle: 50:14

yeah. No, it's, it, it, it was an amazing experience to write that I really enjoyed collaborating with you and just, um, yeah, people are excited about it. It's just a great, you know, resource to be out there for people. And, um, yeah, just again, it's just interesting just to help people challenge their beliefs.'cause really we address just a lot of, uh, misinformation, you know, that's out there, um, about the body and or about yoga. And I think, um, I think there's times where that can be, I. Like misinformation can be harmful because that's, that's really why I am passionate about that. You know, it's, it's not just like, oh, you're not, you're not accurate, you know, and just to kind of like challenge people for the sake of it. But I think it's when, for example, when when we share, you know, oh, yoga reverses osteoporosis, like that's harmful lot of people might think, well I don't, I don't have to go to the gym. I don't have to do high impact activities because I'm doing my yoga and that's gonna be enough. Or when we say, oh, yoga can boost the immune system, maybe people think, well, I go to yoga twice a week so I don't have to take any precautions, you know, in the middle of Covid. Well, it's like, no, you do have to So it's, I think that's the thing for me, it's like, um, misinformation can be really harmful and that's why I like to clear a lot of that up, you know, for people.

Matthew Huy: 51:46

yeah, and you're certainly doing a good job of that. Um, just to put a little bit of lightness on your cynicism, uh, you know, I, we do the best that we can with the, the knowledge we currently have, don't

Andrew McGonigle: 52:02

Yeah. No, no,

Matthew Huy: 52:03

so whenever I hear someone saying an a claim that isn't, that isn't accurate, uh,.number one, I think, you know, that's, that's, that's the best knowledge that they have. They haven't gone through all the training and learning that I've gone through. Um, ultimately I don't know everything that they know. Um, and so we're, we're all doing the best that we can, but it is incumbent on us as yoga teachers to continue trying to learn more and to grow and to stay up to date with the latest information so that we, we can share the most powerful and empowering messages with our clients. You know?'cause after all, we are here to help others, to serve others.

Andrew McGonigle: 52:43

Yeah.

Matthew Huy: 52:43

Um, so with that said, if, if there's one thing that you could say to all yoga teachers, if you have one message, what could I ask you? What that would be?

Andrew McGonigle: 52:55

Oh yeah. Just, you know, um, just have an open mind. Just be open to having your preexisting beliefs challenged. And yeah, that can be uncomfortable, but just be open. And I'm always inspired when people come to my workshops and events because I just love seeing people come with that hunger to relearn things, you know, or to challenge themselves or, um, so yeah, just to keep, keep an open mind and as you say, like we're all just doing the best we can in every moment based on our experience and the current knowledge we have. And then just be open to, um, yeah, to, to challenging yourself a little bit every, every day or every week, you know? And that's all we can do. Yeah.

Matthew Huy: 53:38

Yeah, absolutely. Great. Good. Well, I think that rounds out the conversation quite nicely is, is there any last things that you would like to share at all? Obviously I asked you in a moment for your Instagram handles and all that stuff, but before that.

Andrew McGonigle: 53:52

No, I just, well, I just, yeah. Thank you for doing this, you know, um, thank you for inviting me on and, um, it's, you know, I love collaborating and I remember you said at the start of the conversation, um, how you were like, grateful for me for being open and kind of, you know, in a way mentoring you when you want to do the journey. And I think often, you know, whether it's teaching yoga or teaching anatomy, it can be a little bit lonely. So collaborate with people, ask people for help or give help to other people. And, you know, it's all part of creating community. So really me offering you a bit of guidance and support also helped me. Um, and I'm really grateful for our relationship. So yeah, I would say to people out there just, you know, collaborate and don't be shy and, yeah.

Matthew Huy: 54:41

I really wanted to, to mention this in this podcast interview today is, is the value of collaboration. I've gotten so much out of our collaboration together. It's, it's been the single most beneficial thing in terms of my, uh, yoga anatomy career. So for anyone who's trying it alone, uh, there's a saying that if you want to get there fast, do it alone. If you want to go far, do it together,

Andrew McGonigle: 55:06

Nice.

Matthew Huy: 55:06

it's, it's really important to, to collaborate and reach out to others and as you say, be generous with your own knowledge, as you've certainly been generous with your knowledge today. So can you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing next? Um, obviously you and I are running a another course in January, and then other things that you're offering.

Andrew McGonigle: 55:25

Yeah, so, um, we run, um, an eight week physiology of yoga course that's based on our book, and we run that a couple of times a year. and yeah, and then I, in the background, I run a 30 hour yoga anatomy online course. And, um, it's on demand so you can join at any time. And then we do live sessions every five weeks. You always get to interact with me and feel like you're part of a community and yeah. And then look out for these workshops that I'm doing. So I'll do more on arthritis, on low back pain and on osteoporosis this year. And then I'm excited to come up with some, you know, other topics. I'm always open to suggestions as well. So, yeah, there's a, you know, I'm keeping, I'm definitely keeping busy and I'm trying to persuade you to maybe write another book with me, so you need to

Matthew Huy: 56:08

Really

Andrew McGonigle: 56:09

Yeah. On language. So we'll see.

Matthew Huy: 56:13

Sounds good. Yeah, I think I still need to get over the, uh, PTSD from the first one. But, uh, it, it was a labor of love. It was wonderful, and thank goodness for my wonderful partner to cook some meals because it just took so much time, and you are a more efficient writer than I am. But I, it was just an, for me, an all-encompassing labor, which, which I really loved and I'm so glad we did it. Um, you know, with, with all things in life, you know, the, the fact that it's the harder something, it is quite often the more rewarding it is. Right. So, great. So as you mentioned, yeah, we're, we're gonna be running our physiology of yoga eight week course several times a year. Our, our course, of course, goes through our book. It's kinda like a book club was the other name we had for it. Also, we go through the different chapters from the musculoskeletal to the nervous system to the digestive. We look at all of the, the anatomy and physiology of that system, as well as some common ailments associated with it, um, and how yoga is known to affect those systems. So that's, that's our course. But what is the difference between that and your anatomy course? How, how does someone know which one to do?

Andrew McGonigle: 57:21

Oh yeah,

Matthew Huy: 57:21

What even is anatomy?

Andrew McGonigle: 57:22

yeah. So anatomy's looking more at like the architecture of the body, you know, so it's really mainly looking at the musculoskeletal system, um, but really relating it all to yoga. We break down each joint in the body, you know, really explore the movements, the muscles, apply it to each of the yoga is, so it's really, it's really fun, super applied. And then with the physiology, it's more doing a deep dive into each system, as you've described. It's really going a journey in through the body and look at a lot of the evidence, the research that's been done. And it's, it's really fun. People really enjoy, you get to interact with Ask, ask questions. We give you a lot of little tests along the way, which are really fun. And I, I think it just gives you, um, I think it really helps empower

Matthew Huy: 58:07

Oh,

Andrew McGonigle: 58:08

Teachers, and again, you get this real awe for the body and you become very clear on discerning, um, myth, myth, myth, myth. I've just created a new word. Myth versus fact. Myth um, myth versus fact, you know? So yeah, it's, it's, I I love it. And, but we get, we get great feedback from it, don't we?

Matthew Huy: 58:33

There are even some Britney Spears gifs in There aren't there? Not gif, but GIF in the, in the mini quiz, which we've added in. Yeah. Great. Cool. And then finally, just if someone does wanna learn more about you, I can't believe I haven't said You're, you are Dr. Yogi, yet So what, what if you just share your handles with us,

Andrew McGonigle: 58:53

Yeah. So I'm on, um, Instagram at Dr. Yogi. So doctor, like spelt out. And then, um, Facebook, Dr. Yogi Andrew, and you can find me at my website, doctor-yogi.com. Um, so yeah, I'll do lots of blog posts and newsletters. I'm always putting content out there, so, um, yeah, definitely come check

Matthew Huy: 59:16

you're, you're, you're very good. And as a little gem, uh, to share at the end of the podcast for people still listening because you're so good at producing so much content and sharing it. What is your advice to a yoga teacher who wants to produce more content and get it out there regularly?

Andrew McGonigle: 59:32

Yeah, so I make a weekly commitment and I basically have it scheduled ahead of time. And I, on Mondays I do my newsletter, and on Fridays I do my social media. And I've done that every week now for a few years. And then if I need, if I know that I need to take some time off, I will schedule time off of social media, but then I'll try to batch more stuff ahead of time. So, uh, everything, everything you see is already pre-prepared in advance. It's all scheduled out. There's a plan for it, just get organized and maybe it's spend in a month just coming up with ideas and not putting anything out there. And I would say, um. Yeah. Don't get into that habit of just creating something, then posting it, because you then can feel, oh, I need to post something today. And then you have to sit and create something. But just be organized, plan ahead, create a schedule batch stuff. It's really helped me a lot.

Matthew Huy: 1:00:26

Hang on. Are you talking to just me or all yoga teachers right here.

Andrew McGonigle: 1:00:29

you, everyone.

Matthew Huy: 1:00:32

I've heard this before. And yeah. You are very good at producing content and you're, I, I know why you did well in medical school and grammar school because you're so, uh, good at keeping that schedule and, and staying on top of things. So thank you very much for joining me today, Andrew. I've really en enjoyed the chat and, um, I look forward to, uh, our next collaboration together and our next course and everything. So thank you. I appreciate you.

Andrew McGonigle: 1:00:56

Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you too.

Matthew Huy: 1:00:59

All right, great. Alright. So until next time, get enlightened and help others. thank you and have a great rest of your day.